riding Skills: Using the Rear Brake (Sport Rider)

[txjames]

Track day with RideSmart,they said, and I agree: I think it was 60-0.

Rear brake only - 250 feet or something like that
Front brake only - 151 feet
Front plus rear - 146 feet.

My experience, plus the above = on a sportbike, the rear doesn't add much value and increases risk. There is so little weight on the rear tire in a hard stop that using it adds very very little, and it is extremely easy to lock up. (been there, done that)

 

[txjames]

As a newer rider I'm not comfortable in steep leans yet but also still haven't been riding long enough to effectively calculate appropriate speed going into corners. Sometimes I can tell I'm going in a little hot. I realize this at the beginning going into the corner, so I stay more upright and use the back brake slightly to scrub off some speed then lean through the corner at a controllable level for my skills. Seems to be working ok.

For stopping I use front then rear. MSF taught use both. Front kills the speed and rear seems to keep me stable. I also find myself using back brake to scrub off speed when approaching lights that are just going green or I'm approaching traffic that's just starting to move. I don't like just engine braking because people seem to not be paying attention enough to notice so I like my back light blinking (integrated tail light.) Anything helps.

I would suggest using the front brake only. You will find it is much much more effective and will scrub speed quickly and much more safely. What if you underestimate a turn and go in really hot? Rear brake really hard? Yikes, no! Get in the habit that your front brake is 95-100% what you use every time... Except off in the grass at the track, then rear only.

 

[buzzbomb]

I would suggest using the front brake only. You will find it is much much more effective and will scrub speed quickly and much more safely. What if you underestimate a turn and go in really hot? Rear brake really hard? Yikes, no! Get in the habit that your front brake is 95-100% what you use every time... Except off in the grass at the track, then rear only.

I've got to disagree with you. For everyday riding, why load up the front end, if you don't have to? A balanced braking approach, rear first, and then front, decreases stopping distance, and improves overall stability; spreading the braking and traction load on both tires, while maintaining a relatively equal load on front and rear suspension.

From personal experience, having the back end slide out is much less a problem than having the front end lose traction. I break traction on the rear end more often than I'm willing to admit. It's relatively easy to recover from. Breaking traction on the front end is "game over."

If you're running the local twisties pretty hard, and come into that corner a little fast, it's bad. Cranking down on the front brake to scrub speed makes it worse. That's a recipe for a high-side.

I would say get lower and more forward, off the inside of the bike, so your center of gravity is lower, while the bike stands more vertical. Load the pegs with your weight, pushing on the outside peg as much as possible, while gripping the tank with your legs. Keep your darn weight off the bars and off the front end! That will increase traction and improve stability, while allowing for an even tighter turn at your high rate of speed.

Don't drop off the throttle. Simply put, that screws things up. If you can, once you're lower, increase the throttle a bit. If you've got your form correct, the bike will now actually turn too tight for the corner at your current speed. Increasing the throttle a tad, while scary as hell, will pull you through the corner, faster and tighter than you thought possible. EDIT: I've also got to say that in that situation, DO NOT look at where you're worried about going off the road. Rather look through the turn. It'll save your ass. END EDIT. That's personal experience.

No doubt, everything changes on the track. But to say "Just use the front brake all the time." The bike's got brakes on both ends for a reason.

Just my humble, word-wall opinion.

 

[txjames]

I've got to disagree with you. For everyday riding, why load up the front end, if you don't have to? A balanced braking approach, rear first, and then front, decreases stopping distance, and improves overall stability; spreading the braking and traction load on both tires, while maintaining a relatively equal load on front and rear suspension.

From personal experience, having the back end slide out is much less a problem than having the front end lose traction. I break traction on the rear end more often than I'm willing to admit. It's relatively easy to recover from. Breaking traction on the front end is "game over."

If you're running the local twisties pretty hard, and come into that corner a little fast, it's bad. Cranking down on the front brake to scrub speed makes it worse. That's a recipe for a high-side.

I would say get lower and more forward, off the inside of the bike, so your center of gravity is lower, while the bike stands more vertical. Load the pegs with your weight, pushing on the outside peg as much as possible, while gripping the tank with your legs. Keep your darn weight off the bars and off the front end! That will increase traction and improve stability, while allowing for an even tighter turn at your high rate of speed.

Don't drop off the throttle. Simply put, that screws things up. If you can, once you're lower, increase the throttle a bit. If you've got your form correct, the bike will now actually turn too tight for the corner at your current speed. Increasing the throttle a tad, while scary as hell, will pull you through the corner, faster and tighter than you thought possible. EDIT: I've also got to say that in that situation, DO NOT look at where you're worried about going off the road. Rather look through the turn. It'll save your ass. END EDIT. That's personal experience.

No doubt, everything changes on the track. But to say "Just use the front brake all the time." The bike's got brakes on both ends for a reason.

Just my humble, word-wall opinion.

Well buzz we're going to cross disagree here. Rear then front is not advised by any expert, MSF, riding school, or elsewhere. You're just wasting time getting to the front brake which is where all the stopping power is. When you slow down, the weight shifts forward. Where the weight goes is where the stopping power is. Don't grab, start with a little front brake to load the front and then you can brake up to the locking point. Practice tells you where that is.

There is a reason why is MSF they tell you that if you lock the rear, to keep it locked. That is to avoid a high side.

 

[buzzbomb]

Well buzz we're going to cross disagree here. Rear then front is not advised by any expert, MSF, riding school, or elsewhere. You're just wasting time getting to the front brake which is where all the stopping power is. When you slow down, the weight shifts forward. Where the weight goes is where the stopping power is. Don't grab, start with a little front brake to load the front and then you can brake up to the locking point. Practice tells you where that is.

There is a reason why is MSF they tell you that if you lock the rear, to keep it locked. That is to avoid a high side.

Haha, well I'm glad you've read what every expert, "MSF, riding school, or elsewhere" has said. That's a monumental task. Please be so kind as provide links to where at least some of them have written that you should never use the rear brake.

You're right about the front having more stopping power. I don't think that's even debatable. You could still stop with just the rear, though. It would require more distance and I can't imagine why anyone would do it, but you could. Why would you not utilize both brakes, and engine breaking for that matter, to come to a stop at an intersection? The 1/2 second it takes me to roll from rear to both brakes is not going to increase my stopping distance. Utilizing the traction and braking potential of both wheels vs. one, decreases stopping distance and increases rider safety. I'm not quoting anyone. It just makes sense.

Whether someone should brake front to back or back to front, I don't know. There's a lot of physics going on there. I think the bike is more stable when applying a little rear brake first, but that's probably a whole 'nother debate.

Concerning your MSF course and locking the rear: They said "Keep it locked?" OK. When did they say to let it go?

To say simply "Keep it locked" is another blanket statement, like "Never use the rear brake." If someone pulls out in front of you while you're going through an intersection, and you stomp on the rear brake in panic, the back's going to lock up. If you don't have to come to a complete stop, why would you?

It's OK to let off the rear brake once you've slowed sufficiently. You are in very little danger of straight-line high-siding over the handlebars because you let off the rear brake. Assuming of course that you let off the front brake as well.

 

[txjames]

Haha, well I'm glad you've read what every expert, "MSF, riding school, or elsewhere" has said. That's a monumental task. Please be so kind as provide links to where at least some of them have written that you should never use the rear brake.

You're right about the front having more stopping power. I don't think that's even debatable. You could still stop with just the rear, though. It would require more distance and I can't imagine why anyone would do it, but you could. Why would you not utilize both brakes, and engine breaking for that matter, to come to a stop at an intersection? The 1/2 second it takes me to roll from rear to both brakes is not going to increase my stopping distance. Utilizing the traction and braking potential of both wheels vs. one, decreases stopping distance and increases rider safety. I'm not quoting anyone. It just makes sense.

Not quoting, it just makes sense? You're killing my buzz.

Sources:
ridesmart.info
Austinmotoacademy.com
tracktactics.com
Keith Code (Twist of the Wrist 2, page 104)

Keith Code:
'It is my recommendation that you master using only the front brake except when riding in slippery conditions. Locking the back brake puts the bike out of control. The rear wheel, spinning, provides the vast majority of stability for the bike from the steering head back. In other words, everything but the front-end is kept stable by the gyro force of the *spinning* rear wheel.

The obvious mathematics of the situation are that the front wheel can do 100 percent of the braking and the back at that point just locks up no matter who you are. Learn to totally rely on the front brake for quick, clean stopping; then if you have a use for the rear, go ahead and use it. But realize that the rear brake is the source of a huge number of crashes both on and off the track. I'll leave the final decision up to you.'

Whether someone should brake front to back or back to front, I don't know. There's a lot of physics going on there. I think the bike is more stable when applying a little rear brake first, but that's probably a whole 'nother debate.

Concerning your MSF course and locking the rear: They said "Keep it locked?" OK. When did they say to let it go?

It's OK to let off the rear brake once you've slowed sufficiently. You are in very little danger of straight-line high-siding over the handlebars because you let off the rear brake. Assuming of course that you let off the front brake as well.

Sorry, that is not good advice. It takes TWICE the distance to stop with the rear with little contribution to stopping distance. It's not worth the risk. Think you need those extra five feet of stopping distance, well then apply the rear, but you're asking for trouble at that point just as Code points out.

MSF teaches if you lock the rear, keep it locked until you are at a complete stop. Obviously you could release it once you have slowed to... essentially stopped. So what. You're adding unnecessary danger. You are asking for a high side, period.

To say simply "Keep it locked" is another blanket statement, like "Never use the rear brake." If someone pulls out in front of you while you're going through an intersection, and you stomp on the rear brake in panic, the back's going to lock up. If you don't have to come to a complete stop, why would you?

1) if someone pulls out in front of me, then I wasn't planning ahead. I don't panic brake. It will never end well. I have been pulled out in front of, had someone change lanes into me, all of that. Panic braking is not the answer. Planned braking is. "If this guy pulls out, I am going to..." (swerve, speed up, slow down, brake hard, etc).

You're right, I haven't read "every expert". However, every expert I've been around has been consistent.

Advice
1) don't get braking advice from me or this board. Find a GOOD instructor and learn.
2) don't get braking advice from cruiser/Harley riders. They know not what they say.
3) don't use the rear brake.

 

[BoneJj]

Well buzz we're going to cross disagree here. Rear then front is not advised by any expert, MSF, riding school, or elsewhere. You're just wasting time getting to the front brake which is where all the stopping power is. When you slow down, the weight shifts forward. Where the weight goes is where the stopping power is. Don't grab, start with a little front brake to load the front and then you can brake up to the locking point. Practice tells you where that is.

There is a reason why is MSF they tell you that if you lock the rear, to keep it locked. That is to avoid a high side.

That statement is quite wrong indeed. I can name at least 5 MSF course instructors that recommend it and I have to agree with them. I think you need to consider some of the dynamics and physics involved in the process. It's been proven multiple times and I believe you can even find the videos on youtube world there that show the results.

Not saying I trust youtube content but I've also seen the affects personally from friends that ride pro. You have 2 brakes for a reason and they are meant to be used together. Although you may not be using the same amount of pressure on each they both benefit you greatly.

 

[Chucker]

You guys should keep this going. Sooner or later someone's opinion is going to win.

 

[BoneJj]

You guys should keep this going. Sooner or later someone's opinion is going to win.

opinions are like aholes, everyone has one and they all stink....

 

[danieljardim]

If rear brakes are bad, why they put in the bike?

 

[txjames]

If rear brakes are bad, why they put in the bike?

To give us something to discuss?

 

[JT]

This is why I love it here. Lmfao...



Sent from my one and only iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[buzzbomb]

Not quoting, it just makes sense? You're killing my buzz.

Sources:
ridesmart.info
Austinmotoacademy.com
tracktactics.com
Keith Code (Twist of the Wrist 2, page 104)

Keith Code:
'It is my recommendation that you master using only the front brake except when riding in slippery conditions. Locking the back brake puts the bike out of control. The rear wheel, spinning, provides the vast majority of stability for the bike from the steering head back. In other words, everything but the front-end is kept stable by the gyro force of the *spinning* rear wheel.

The obvious mathematics of the situation are that the front wheel can do 100 percent of the braking and the back at that point just locks up no matter who you are. Learn to totally rely on the front brake for quick, clean stopping; then if you have a use for the rear, go ahead and use it. But realize that the rear brake is the source of a huge number of crashes both on and off the track. I'll leave the final decision up to you.'




Sorry, that is not good advice. It takes TWICE the distance to stop with the rear with little contribution to stopping distance. It's not worth the risk. Think you need those extra five feet of stopping distance, well then apply the rear, but you're asking for trouble at that point just as Code points out.

MSF teaches if you lock the rear, keep it locked until you are at a complete stop. Obviously you could release it once you have slowed to... essentially stopped. So what. You're adding unnecessary danger. You are asking for a high side, period.



1) if someone pulls out in front of me, then I wasn't planning ahead. I don't panic brake. It will never end well. I have been pulled out in front of, had someone change lanes into me, all of that. Panic braking is not the answer. Planned braking is. "If this guy pulls out, I am going to..." (swerve, speed up, slow down, brake hard, etc).

You're right, I haven't read "every expert". However, every expert I've been around has been consistent.

Advice
1) don't get braking advice from me or this board. Find a GOOD instructor and learn.
2) don't get braking advice from cruiser/Harley riders. They know not what they say.
3) don't use the rear brake.

Okey Dokey. That was fun while it lasted. Here's the rest of Keith Code's quote, you somehow neglected to mention:

"While it is true for most riders that a motorcycle will come to a full stop quicker with both brakes applied, in racing you don't come to a full stop until you're done."

Thanks for playing. Have a nice day.

As for the rest of that post? I honestly feel no need to comment. Sorry to ruin your buzz.

The humor is not lost on me that Buzz ruined your buzz! lol

 

[Chevyfazer]

I was talking with someone on here about this same stuff, and basically what it boils down too is Keith Code is a "It's my way or the highway" type person thinking that his way is the only way around the track (albeit fast but not the fastest) the fastest riders in motogp use the rear brake ALOT in setting their turns up "backing it in". Are any of us here gp riders... No, even though we might think we are at times but everyone will find what works for them. I my self use the hell out of my rear brake, it helps the front end not dive as much when you come flying up to a corner. But what works for me might not work for the next guy, but that doesn't mean that no one should use the rear brake just because Keith code said so.

Find what works for YOU!

 

[buzzbomb]

I was talking with someone on here about this same stuff, and basically what it boils down too is Keith Code is a "It's my way or the highway" type person thinking that his way is the only way around the track (albeit fast but not the fastest) the fastest riders in motogp use the rear brake ALOT in setting their turns up "backing it in". Are any of us here gp riders... No, even though we might think we are at times but everyone will find what works for them. I my self use the hell out of my rear brake, it helps the front end not dive as much when you come flying up to a corner. But what works for me might not work for the next guy, but that doesn't mean that no one should use the rear brake just because Keith code said so.

Find what works for YOU!

Having read this, I'm guessing you posted your reply before I did mine. Still, some good points, there!

 

[leem00]

This is enlightening...

Riding Skills Series: Using The Rear Brake - Sport Rider Magazine

.

Bump for a good read for newbie riders!

 

[Detrich]

Keith codes videos are so incredibly boring. I watched 30 min and fell asleep. All blabbing and no teaching. Lame

 

[FastFreddy]

I like to lightly drag the rear brake if the corner drops away, tightens up or if I go into a corner to hot. Sometimes I drag the front brakes to tighten up a line as well.

Sometimes I drag both brakes if I need to settle.

If I use front brake only, it feels like the bike really tips over forwards too much. It feels horrible too me and makes turn in slower.

You feel the rear of the bike want to squat a bit when you drag the rear brake whilst also using the front brakes hard.