Just a side note: This all depends on what state you are in. Many states are not "Stand your ground" states, and from my reading, more states are beginning to move away from that due to abuse of the ability. In MN for example, you can break in my door and come in the house and it is my responsability to try and get away in ANY way. That gun can only be used legally if I am backed into a corner and there is absolutely no other way. In MN in this biker situation, you would have had to drive away, not use your gun until yeah, you are being pulled out of the car. Can not use my gun to try and change behavior otherwise it is brandishing. *I carry a 9mm 92FS, a SW MP40 or a XDM 40 Compact pending my mood.Because in states where concealed is legal your vehicle is an extension of your home. It legally becomes your rolling residence. Now, if someone is intent on doing me or my family harm by kicking in the front door of my house I'm legally justified in using deadly force against that threat. Same goes for my vehicles. If someone is trying to drag me out of my vehicle I'm legally justified in using deadly force against that threat.
I carry a .45, because they don't make a concealable .46.
running over bikes like bowling pins
- Thread starter danieljardim
- Start date
MAY BE A REPOST BUT IN NOT GOING TO LOOK THROUGHT 100 REPLIES TO MAKE SURE
LiveLeak.com - More footage previous to Range Rover incident
THIS SHOWS THE SAME GUYS GROUP RECODING ON A PRIOR DATE
LiveLeak.com - More footage previous to Range Rover incident
THIS SHOWS THE SAME GUYS GROUP RECODING ON A PRIOR DATE
I don't know. I've never been in this sort of situation, so I really don't know how things would have played out, but you've painted an awfully rosy picture. The guy in the car shoots a bike, everyone gets all chummy, hugs all around, everyone adds everyone else to their facebook friends list and they go on their merry way promising to keep in touch, maybe the bikers are even invited to the daughter's (?) high school graduation.
It's a gang of bikers, if one of them had a gun, I'm pretty sure it would have played out completely different than your scenario. Guy shoots bike, biker(s) shoot back, everyone dies.
In my scenario, Darwin wins
FastFreddy
New Member
In general this incident is bad for bikers as a whole because :
- People in cars will now think, "Cool, I can run over bikers anytime they hassle me. I saw the youtube video."
There's a part of me that is cheering on, "get that guy in the car, because you can't explain safe driving to them" due to the large number of incidents in the last 6 months, I've had with car drivers attempting to hurt me and intimidate me with their car, I've been lucky.
ie : a guy straddling 2 lanes (bus lane and car lane) whilst overtaking me on the outside of the bend at 100 km/h in a 60 km/h zone at 8am in the morning, my bike in one wheel track, his car in the other, if I had of ran wide in the bend he would have killed me. And 500 m up the road, it was another red light. So think about it, they are prepared to risk your death, just so can get to the next red light 3 seconds earlier.
It's always the 60 km/h zones when cars get impatient I've found.
ie : They'll come into the 60 zone doing 80-100km/h without noticing that its a red light up ahead with buses pulling over and pedestrians etc, but they'll side swip and charge up my ***.
Fixating only on the car/bike immediately in front. Alot of people do this, they won't see the bus pulling into the driveway doing 40km/h directly in front of me on my motorbike. So I'm slowing down for the bus to turn off in front of me, and there's chewbacca in a taxi stradling both lanes heading straight for me at 80-100 km/h, if I didn't immediately recognise the dangerous situation he was putting me in and then follow the bus into the bus bay, then I would be dead, again.
What annoys me most about cars driving in an intimidating manner risking death, is that they usually only do it if you are driving the motorbike at the speed limit in a safe manner. If you ride like a twat, above the speed limit, filtering at every opportunity, cars seem to leave you alone then and it feels much safer. So I'm left with a choice, break the law and be safe, or drive "safely" and risk death by an inconsiderate vindictive car driver. Either way, it's not a good feeling anymore riding in big cities.
- People in cars will now think, "Cool, I can run over bikers anytime they hassle me. I saw the youtube video."
There's a part of me that is cheering on, "get that guy in the car, because you can't explain safe driving to them" due to the large number of incidents in the last 6 months, I've had with car drivers attempting to hurt me and intimidate me with their car, I've been lucky.
ie : a guy straddling 2 lanes (bus lane and car lane) whilst overtaking me on the outside of the bend at 100 km/h in a 60 km/h zone at 8am in the morning, my bike in one wheel track, his car in the other, if I had of ran wide in the bend he would have killed me. And 500 m up the road, it was another red light. So think about it, they are prepared to risk your death, just so can get to the next red light 3 seconds earlier.
It's always the 60 km/h zones when cars get impatient I've found.
ie : They'll come into the 60 zone doing 80-100km/h without noticing that its a red light up ahead with buses pulling over and pedestrians etc, but they'll side swip and charge up my ***.
Fixating only on the car/bike immediately in front. Alot of people do this, they won't see the bus pulling into the driveway doing 40km/h directly in front of me on my motorbike. So I'm slowing down for the bus to turn off in front of me, and there's chewbacca in a taxi stradling both lanes heading straight for me at 80-100 km/h, if I didn't immediately recognise the dangerous situation he was putting me in and then follow the bus into the bus bay, then I would be dead, again.
What annoys me most about cars driving in an intimidating manner risking death, is that they usually only do it if you are driving the motorbike at the speed limit in a safe manner. If you ride like a twat, above the speed limit, filtering at every opportunity, cars seem to leave you alone then and it feels much safer. So I'm left with a choice, break the law and be safe, or drive "safely" and risk death by an inconsiderate vindictive car driver. Either way, it's not a good feeling anymore riding in big cities.
Motorcycle Melee: What To Do If You’re Faced With Similar Danger
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2013/10/01/motorcycle-melee-what-to-do-if-youre-faced-with-similar-danger/
http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2013/10/01/motorcycle-melee-what-to-do-if-youre-faced-with-similar-danger/
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Whatever the police investigation verdict is, my personal feeling is that the use of deadly force must always be justified. And, there's a very strong argument for it in this case in favor for the driver.
But, I honestly don't know what the answer is here...
The bikers for sure are a wild mob of hooligans & criminals- ie riding crazy all over the place and showing a complete disregard to all traffic laws & public safety. And, as sad as we all feel for the guy who got hit, there's an old saying- "guilty by association." And, u can't deny or question his judgement for participating in such a crazy event- knowing he himself is a father with a responsibility and duty to his own family. He kinda put himself in harm's way by just being there, sorta say.
But, the flip side is this... Even if u feel threatened, u still can't just spray the entire mob with gunfire and then say it was all in self defense. There still has to be some justification and accountability.
I can understand it if it's the "zombie apocalypse" and they're all coming to eat ur brains and there's no other choice. Hahaha...
But to some degree, what the driver did was essentially spray the mob with bullets. He didn't know who or what he would hit & decided to just plow thru everything and everyone in his path in order to high tail it out there. So it needs to be reviewed.
Granted, I definitely feel for him and his situation. He was with his family and felt threatened. His daughter was with him. I definitely think he has a strong case.
Let the lawyers duke it out in court I guess.
But, I honestly don't know what the answer is here...
The bikers for sure are a wild mob of hooligans & criminals- ie riding crazy all over the place and showing a complete disregard to all traffic laws & public safety. And, as sad as we all feel for the guy who got hit, there's an old saying- "guilty by association." And, u can't deny or question his judgement for participating in such a crazy event- knowing he himself is a father with a responsibility and duty to his own family. He kinda put himself in harm's way by just being there, sorta say.
But, the flip side is this... Even if u feel threatened, u still can't just spray the entire mob with gunfire and then say it was all in self defense. There still has to be some justification and accountability.
I can understand it if it's the "zombie apocalypse" and they're all coming to eat ur brains and there's no other choice. Hahaha...
But to some degree, what the driver did was essentially spray the mob with bullets. He didn't know who or what he would hit & decided to just plow thru everything and everyone in his path in order to high tail it out there. So it needs to be reviewed.
Granted, I definitely feel for him and his situation. He was with his family and felt threatened. His daughter was with him. I definitely think he has a strong case.
Let the lawyers duke it out in court I guess.
Pretty sure Range Rover has automatic locks..wonder how they got the door to open? My crappy VW Golf doesn't unlock even when I put the gear in Park for safety measure.. not much you can do if someone is trying to smash your window in though.
Either case.. it is sad about the guy who is in the hospital in critial condition as he is a father, husband, and son to someone.
Let's be safe out there everyone!
Either case.. it is sad about the guy who is in the hospital in critial condition as he is a father, husband, and son to someone.
Let's be safe out there everyone!
It's not a "rosy" picture, it's reality. These aren't gang-banger, or outlaw bikers. They're dumbass stunters on their way downtown to do their thing (according to the cops).I don't know. I've never been in this sort of situation, so I really don't know how things would have played out, but you've painted an awfully rosy picture. The guy in the car shoots a bike, everyone gets all chummy, hugs all around, everyone adds everyone else to their facebook friends list and they go on their merry way promising to keep in touch, maybe the bikers are even invited to the daughter's (?) high school graduation.
It's a gang of bikers, if one of them had a gun, I'm pretty sure it would have played out completely different than your scenario. Guy shoots bike, biker(s) shoot back, everyone dies.
In my scenario, Darwin wins
If you've ever been in a crowd such as that, when someone lets loose a round, it gets *everyone's* attention, and tends to freeze all activity. Often that's all it takes to quickly cool tempers and heads. Is there a chance someone is going to pull their own weapon and get crazy? Of course. There was a chance of that happening when the guy drove off, was stopped in traffic, and the dickwad caved in his window with a helmet, ending in the driver being beaten to a pulp.
So, you make a considered, and educated, decision. It's all you can do. In my case, I'd have been armed, and we don't know the outcome for sure, but IMHO it would have been better for the driver (had it been me). If you were the driver, unarmed, you'd be in the hospital with your face swelled shut and your bones broken... as Mr. Lien is now...
pretty sure I met a cager who saw this tonight... I was in the left lane letting cars merge from right... he came across three lanes in front of me (me going speed limit) and I had to slow down because he didn't get up to speed... then the f##$$$r brake checked me.... wtf??? so ... yeah, i downshifted, punched it, and got around and away from him.... gee, I didn't make headlines on the internet either... get away from idiots, plain and simple
:banghead:Unfortunately, thanks to the press this is getting, from CNN to Bill O'Reilly, we all may "run into" an individual or two that think this is universal sport biker behavior, and decide to brake check, or merge a bit too close, or even "accidentally" flick a burning butt into your helmet...
So, as always... be careful out there...
EDIT: Just heard... they seem to have the whole story.... from the first brake check *causing* the first collision to the chase, and attack. Two bikers arrested so far: the guy on the white SS that brake-checked him, and the jackass going to town on his car with his helmet. They've ruined it for bikers in that area for a LONG time (and perhaps not just *that* area). Three lawyers saying in unison: "flat down self defense on the part of the driver..."
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It's funny how these bunch of tools grow balls when they are in a pack and think they can ride like they own the streets. I can't blame the guy in the truck for what happened. He has a wife and kid in the car and he most certainly was in threat for his and his families life. I would do anything to protect them as well. I have lived in NY in the 80's when this type of hooliganism was rampant in the streets and subways called " wilding". This reminds me of this type of behavior, only they have expensive toys do do it with. Individually, I doubt if they would drive in the same manner and have such disregard for the law and others. I have no respect for these bikers sorry.
As a firearms enthusiast and a staunch defender of 2A, your advice is just bad. In all the training I've had, if you ever feel the need to discharge a firearm to protect your (or someone else') safety, it's all or nothing. You don't let loose a round or fire a warning shot. That's the type of thing that gets someone arrested. You shoot to stop the threat, not scare them.
And it may have had to come to that.
I've been through a number of weapons based self-defense courses as well (and also a very big advocate of the 2nd). And, different situations have their own responses. If you've read any post I've made in regard to drawing a weapon, I've advocated NOT drawing it unless you plan on using it. That being said, those situations are in response to 1 on 1, 2 on 1, even 3 on 1 self-defense scenarios.
This was not that scenario here, and a mob attack demands modified tactics. There are multiple articles and classes available on Flash Mob attacks (which have morphed from entertainment into organized violent mob attacks here and in Europe). One of those tactics is not allowing them to get close (after it's determined that they're coming after you with a vengeance). This is where a round into a bike is prudent, while still having an escape route.
Once any avenue of escape is futile, (and he couldn't drive any further on slashed tires) as was the case when Lien was stopped in downtown traffic, and Allen Edwards began hammering his windows, and harm coming to Lien and/or his family was imminent, *that* would have been the time to put a round (or three) into Edwards (and perhaps the dude trying to punch out the rear window).
So, yes, I agree with you. Don't draw without firing at the aggressor when harm is imminent. Not when there is still an alternative.
bloodypulp
New Member
Seeing one 9f my friends get run over by an suv up close sorry but id chase him to the end of the earth to end him
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xleeb0y13x
New Member
I guess the hope would be that you and your friends wouldn't put yourselves in a situation where you have intimidated a person to go to these extreme measures.
Sent while running with scissors.
bloodypulp
New Member
It doesnt matter its a gut reaction when someone your close to goes down like that . I wont change and im not naturally violent.
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