Throttle Bodies

[Spunky99]

Will an YZF R6R throttle body fit on a FZ6R?

Is there a difference?

Why?

Because I see there is a difference in the throttle bodies. They are 4mm smaller on the FZ6R. With a R6R TB and a new pipe could you get HP closer to the R6R?

I see people buying a JuiceBox for about $250.00 and a set of pipes for $750.00 to get 10 hp for $1,000.00.
What if you could put on a R6R header and TB and add a micro muffler for about $300.00 total and get 20 HP?

I'm thinking that with a R6R TB and header, you don't need the JuiceBox because you already have 4MM bigger TB and fuel to match.

Is my thought process leaving out something?

 

[Mart Man FZ6R]

Yep.

Valves, Cams, Cam timing, etc. It's not that easy to add 20 hp from a couple bolt ons. A lager TB isn't going to help with getting the proper amount of fuel at the proper time. The R6 makes more PEAK power, but you have to wring the crap out of it to get there. Our bikes offer much better low end and midrange power which is more condusive to the street environment.

 

[Spunky99]

Did some engine analysis today to see what the differences are and this is the basic engine difference.

The FZ6R is a whopping .8cm larger than the R6R due to a smaller diameter cylinder/piston and a longer stroke. (think of a stroked Harley)
67mm vs 65.5mm diameter and 42.5mm vs 44.5mm stroke

The valves are even more interesting with the intake going from min 26.9 vs 22.9...4mm smaller...less fuel to get in but a longer stroke for a longer possible intake fuel load timing.
Exhaust is 22.9 vs 21.9, only 1mm difference with the same longer stroke.

The problem is that the cam intake and exhaust lobes are about 1mm smaller on the FZ6R. We can make up for this by having a longer duration cam shape and though the diagram shows the FZ6R to have a this, I don't see any specs on it except the width which is a little smaller by about .2mm. This would indicate a more square cam lobe shape vs pointy on the R6R.

The TB numbers indicate a 41mm on the R6R vs 32mm on the FZ6R which is much smaller.

So it would appear that we have a longer stroke with less fuel in and out both due to cam, valve and TB size. We generate about 68HP vs 130HP

JuiceBox, larger jets in the stock injector (recommended by TBR), exhaust systems, larger TB install....lots to think about.

 

[Funkmaxtor]

Or you could buy an R6. It will take a major engine rebuild to produce numbers anywhere close to an R6. I'm not sure if it is really worth all that unless you just want to have the most B.A. FZ6R. Also remember that our bikes weight is a big downside compared to the R6. So even if you could produce the power of the R6 it would still be faster due to the weight of our bike.

I am definitely interested to see any mods to this motor though. Keep us all informed if you decide to mod anything.

 

[Spunky99]

Or you could buy an R6. It will take a major engine rebuild to produce numbers anywhere close to an R6. I'm not sure if it is really worth all that unless you just want to have the most B.A. FZ6R. Also remember that our bikes weight is a big downside compared to the R6. So even if you could produce the power of the R6 it would still be faster due to the weight of our bike.

I am definitely interested to see any mods to this motor though. Keep us all informed if you decide to mod anything.

Thanks for the encouragement...

Nope.....I don't want to pay the big $$ for an R6R and I do like the more linear power curve of the FZ6R. I don't want to have to bang 9K just to get into the power band and push it to 14K on every shift. The FZ6R is fun and not too crazy with a more normal riding position. If I want to get another bike, the R1 is where I'd go, that or a CBR1000 or a Ducati Superbike. I bought this under $6,000.00 bike because it was cheap to buy and cheap to upgrade and mod. A whole lot cheaper to upgrade than the R6R or R1...

I also don't want to hand over $1,000.00 to TBR for 10 HP....that is soooooo sad...maybe I'm just too cheap to pay $100.00 per HP..

I think a 20HP to 25HP boost is possible with the R6R throttle bodies and an appropriate exhaust system. I might have to fork over some $$ to TBR for a JuiceBox....we will see.

Not looking to get 130HP..I don't think that's possible no matter what I do.
I also don't think the rest of the bike is up to the challenge either.
but 10HP for $1,000.00 with the TBR setup? c'mon....
There has to be another way and I'll spend some time and $$ to find it.
20HP would be fine. Without the TBR JuiceBox, my planned upgrade cost will be $290.00 + welding and bending the pipe. That's TOTAL.......DONE...COMPLETE. I have $90.00 into the TB and header as delivered. $200.00 for a micro muffler unless I can find a cheaper option.

R6R throttle bodies are cheap and there are lots of them on eBay for $50.00 to $200.00. Just make sure it is an R6R and not an R6S.... Same with the R6R headers. So starting with cheap racing parts upgrades is available to everyone, not just me. I did the suspension mods first so I had a viable container for the speed jewels I'm contemplating installing as driving a lousy handling fast bike is pretty useless and dangerous.

I've got lots of experience tinkering around with bikes and I have no qualms about swapping out the TB. I can always swap back and resell the parts as I'm preserving the original TB and exhaust just in case. To me it's just a toy to play with until I'm bored and then move on to the next fun project.

If I can get 20HP more for $300.00 total, I've succeeded..If not, at least I gave it a try. Remember the movie "The Last Indian"....now that is some amazing engineering....

 

[mchury]

right on man. you def got the right attitude to get things done. Make sure you let us know what works the best.

 

[toddjcruz]

One thing you have to remember is, that the wonderful and very flat power curve we have on the FZ6R is because of things like smaller throttle bodies and less life and valve size.

All thoes changes, to the larger sized components are all designed to aid in the capacity of air flow in the upper bands, like 11k and beyond. For best performance in the 4-8k range, the smaller components do not limit the flow at all, but in fact enhance the speed of the air flowing through the engine. This is what makes for a good burn. You toss on larger throttle bodies, and right away you cause the air flow to slow going through them (as they are larger, the same amount of air can pass through at a lower speed).

If you look at the torque curve of the fz6 alone (and MANY in that class) you will see a major dip in output in the mid range. They just are not tuned for it. I love our power delivery and though more power would be nice, I don't know if I would give up the wonderful throttle response we have in normal driving situation.

That said. Who the hell really doesnt want more HP? LOL.

Here is the dyno. Loot at the drop right in the middle, 5k-8k range. It's like the engine just stopped working!

 

[jotapeh]

Let us know how it goes. At least as far as my wallet is concerned, I'd be willing to drop $1500-2000 for the HP increase you're talking about, because (up here) that puts you on par with R6 purchase price.. and you win out with a better seating position.

 

[CDN6R]

Spunky:: For those of us (me included) could you tell us the differences between the R6R and R6S engines and exhaust pipes? Thankyou.

 

[Spunky99]

One thing you have to remember is, that the wonderful and very flat power curve we have on the FZ6R is because of things like smaller throttle bodies and less life and valve size

less life? did you mean lift as in camshaft.....ya agreed.

Good explanation on the venturi effect of a larger vs smaller throttle body too.
so If I leave the camshaft, pistons, compression, valves etc alone and stuff more juice through the engine (which is essentially what the JuiceBox does) I can hopefully retain the flatter curve and retain the throttle response while adding a couple of HP. Of course fuel economy goes to heck....

I like the curve of the Honda in that graph and that got me to thinking...
What size are the TB on the 600 RR?
I saw on a forum that they are 38mm. Ours are 32mm and the R6R is 41mm.
I am downloading the service manual now to look at the specs on the bore/stroke, cam, TB and valve sizes.

I also read somewhere on the TBR site where they say the stock CPU can adjust to changes of 30% in fuel delivery stock. (or something along those lines) So maybe the computer will be able to compensate some and help to keep the curve flat after I put on the larger TB unit. Who knows?
The quest for HP continues with one caveat..

We all want the throttle response and power curve to remain the same as stock but have a little more torque/HP...right?

OK...now the goal is better defined...

 

[Funkmaxtor]

I don't mean to bring you down about working on this project. But reading past posts (not yours) a lot of people expect this bike to be the fastest thing around.

That said, I'm always up for tinkering with my bike as well. When you get the TB on I would love to see the gain in performance. I put my stock bike on the dyno and got readings at 63.33 HP at the wheel. When your done with all the upgrades I would dyno it so you can see what kind of gains you really get.

 

[dart1963]

Let us know how it goes. At least as far as my wallet is concerned, I'd be willing to drop $1500-2000 for the HP increase you're talking about, because (up here) that puts you on par with R6 purchase price.. and you win out with a better seating position.

$2000 for modding our engine???

here you go, and there are a few more like it... kind of an extreme mod... but I think it gets the job done. I forget where I saw it, but one of the auctions included everything, ecu, wiring, etc.

06 07 Yamaha R6 Engine and Harness: eBay Motors (item 150467459279 end time Jul-19-10 00:09:05 PDT)

:justkidding: but I think the intent was to do modest HP gains for a modest price. If you're willing to spend that kind of money, then you probably want to do more of an engine swap or TBR exhaust and pc.

Spunky, if you're looking for parts from an R6, since I've seen a couple of "running engines" on eb.... wonder if they have full "non-running engines" that you could experiment with on swapping around parts?

 

[toddjcruz]

less life? did you mean lift as in camshaft.....ya agreed.
QUOTE]

Ugh, yeah, lift! I've spend the past 10 years on my 1992 Mazda Miata, 1.6l with learing all I could. Added a supercharger, intercooler, larger injectors, different cams, cam timing, ECU and building fuel and timing maps. I would say it was the best learing experience I've ever had with understanding engines. Now, if we could get some of the things that cars have to resolve the issues of low RPM power vs high end power, like variable cam timing and lift, variable intake runners (throttle bodies to us people) and variable exhaust pressue, we would have one screaming and usable power curve!

 

[JSP]

VTEC baby!

2009 Interceptor Overview - Honda Powersports

I would love this bike! Always wanted an interceptor.

 

[Spunky99]

$2000 for modding our engine???

here you go, and there are a few more like it... kind of an extreme mod... but I think it gets the job done. I forget where I saw it, but one of the auctions included everything, ecu, wiring, etc.

06 07 Yamaha R6 Engine and Harness: eBay Motors (item 150467459279 end time Jul-19-10 00:09:05 PDT)

:justkidding: but I think the intent was to do modest HP gains for a modest price. If you're willing to spend that kind of money, then you probably want to do more of an engine swap or TBR exhaust and pc.

Spunky, if you're looking for parts from an R6, since I've seen a couple of "running engines" on eb.... wonder if they have full "non-running engines" that you could experiment with on swapping around parts?

NOOOOOOOOO

I don't think the frame and running gear is capable of the 130 HP. I know I don't want that power curve and throttle response.

Cheap upgrade path is what I'm going for...best HP per dollar I can get....

 

[dart1963]

VTEC baby!

2009 Interceptor Overview - Honda Powersports

I would love this bike! Always wanted an interceptor.

Hey... I just posted that up for someone else too...

NOOOOOOOOO

I don't think the frame and running gear is capable of the 130 HP. I know I don't want that power curve and throttle response.

Cheap upgrade path is what I'm going for...best HP per dollar I can get....

You missed the :justkidding:
I don't even think it will fit, as our engine is part of our frame, without some heavy modding.

 

[Spunky99]

Hey... I just posted that up for someone else too...



You missed the :justkidding:
I don't even think it will fit, as our engine is part of our frame, without some heavy modding.

Think of me as a lazy mechanic....no big engine swaps or mods.
exhaust and TB is cool....suspension etc.

I think the engine will run like crap with the bigger 41mm TB personally....
for $50.00 I thought I'd see what happens...sell it on eBay and get my $$ back if it don't do the trick. I think maybe going from a 32mm to a 34 or 36 might be cool. Lose a little in the 4 to 5K range but ballsy in the 7 to 9k range.
If you don't experiment...you can conjecture forever and never know what it might have been (or not...lol).
:iconbeer:

 

[99vengeur]

Ok, I'm just going to throw this out here. If you are looking for the biggest bang for your buck, i.e. HP/$.....then you need to look into a power adder. In other words, maybe you should shift your thinking to consider adding a turbocharger or some nitrous oxide. It's the quickest way to get hp gains and still retain a fairly stock power/torque curve. Especially with nirtous oxide, as you can control how much, when and how often it gets sprayed.

Just some food for thought.

 

[Funkmaxtor]

A turbo would be sweet. I feel a frame-twister, coming out of a corner, in the making!

 

[dart1963]

Ok, I'm just going to throw this out here. If you are looking for the biggest bang for your buck, i.e. HP/$.....then you need to look into a power adder. In other words, maybe you should shift your thinking to consider adding a turbocharger or some nitrous oxide. It's the quickest way to get hp gains and still retain a fairly stock power/torque curve. Especially with nirtous oxide, as you can control how much, when and how often it gets sprayed.

Just some food for thought.

Wasn't craxican working on a turbo or something, thought he had even said it was on order at one point