Got It Right, But Still Lacking

[buzzbomb]

My odyssey from cruiser style riding, to sport riding has moved on to another chapter.

Once again up to the twisties above Rockingham, NC. I don't post every time I go. I actually go quite a bit. Today was my best run ever. Everything clicked into place, with my form at it's absolute best. You know how I can tell? The way she sailed!

You know how it is, when you get it right: The bike just settles down and pulls the corner like it's sailing on the wind. It's just so smooth and so stable as you fly around that corner that it feels like you're not even on the ground.

Yep, it was that good. But, alas, some issues. I came into two turns too late, and it was only the fact I was running at about 80%, and so had room to lean even more, that saved my ass. Also, it's damn amazing how tightly the bike will turn, when you get the form right! There were several times I had to consciously come off my lean, because I was taking the corner tighter than it required.

I'm not all bunched up on the back of the bike, anymore. I figured that one out many runs ago. I'm still a little heavy on the bars. With all that body movement, while cranking on the bars, it's tough not to be heavy on them. I got it mostly right, though.

I still have to constantly think about my form, to get it right, so I can't yet concentrate on the line I'm taking, other than staying in my lane or being able to see around a corner as best I can. Outside of the basic "Cut the corner," the fastest line still mostly eludes me. I'm not worried about that, as I feel it will come with time, and it's not that critical to me. It's my form, making myself one with my machine, that I'm focused on.

I'm still fighting on loading the outside peg with my leg. I'm finding it difficult. Hanging off the inside, my outside leg is pretty stretched, and it takes a lot of my already stressed thought processes to remember to load that outside peg and not the inside.

When I got it right though! Holy frickin' cow, the way she sailed!

 

[cezell09]

That sounds amazing! I have yet to achieve that one with the machine feeling. I'm no where near that at the moment. I hope to achieve that soon though. It all takes practice.

I know what you mean when you say it's hard to weight the outside peg. It just doesn't feel at all natural to me. It is a bit of a stretch and hanging off the inside already has most of my weight on the inside peg. I think it's time to watch Twist II again...

 

[RoadTrip]

Yeah, Keith Code discussed what you were experiencing in his article in the last Motorcyclist Magazine. It concerned stability of rider and bike, and the importance of staying relaxed and comfortable; the rider-bike combination is most stable when the rider finds a comfortable position through the turn, the rider is not tense or in an awkward position on the bike. Loose on the bars and relaxed throughout the body, then the bike has a better chance of running smoothly and finding it's ideal position, all of this equals better mid-corner stability. I been going back to a focus on relaxation since reading the article, sometimes we forget and return to a muscle-the-bike technique.

Oh yeah, and avoid watching Mullholland videos, you gonna take that shit with you next ride - found a neighborhood under construction yesterday with a perfect tight 180 kinda like Mullholland, can you say MotoGP fantasy.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPnkDd0cepg]Mulholland @ 300fps - Red Epic Super Slowmo - YouTube[/ame]

 

[JonKerr]

Aint it great when you feel comfortable? ;-) a couple things that may help with weighting the outside peg if you havent already done is get stomp grips or something similar on the tank. Also make sure youre riding on the ball of your foot. The peg should be only a few inches back from the tip of your toes. That will let you flex your calf, pushing your toes down into the peg and your knee up into the notch of the tank gripping the stomp grip. Thats what weighting the outside peg is. Think about it like riding a bicycle. When you go around a turn on a bike the outside pedal is down and thats where your weight is.

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

 

[buzzbomb]

That sounds amazing! I have yet to achieve that one with the machine feeling. I'm no where near that at the moment. I hope to achieve that soon though. It all takes practice.

I know what you mean when you say it's hard to weight the outside peg. It just doesn't feel at all natural to me. It is a bit of a stretch and hanging off the inside already has most of my weight on the inside peg. I think it's time to watch Twist II again...

The loading of the outside peg I got off of this forum. I swear by Keith Codes' video. But I didn't get that little gem, there. I got from Rookaski, who just happened to mention it. He's got the book, lol.

Of course I had to try it out. The first time I tried it, I was pretty amazed. Since then, It's become just part of the form I'm working towards. Like so much of proper form, it's not intended to be part of every turn. My Sport riding skills are still developing, though, so I work at it.

As for being one with the machine, the very basics have to be addressed first.

I was watching a video taken at The Tail of the Dragon. The narrator was pretty pissed when he almost crashed into the bike before him, because "some Kawai 250 had an incident." You know who ride's a Ninja 250? Inexperienced and new riders. That poor guy probably had just enough experience to think he knew what he was doing. He did not have enough experience to realize he didn't know, what he didn't know.

If someone else were to see me on the road, they might say that I ride harder than I admit. I won't say it. I've been riding since the mid eighties, though. All the basics are so far under my belt that it's just muscle memory.

The FZ6R doesn't really require any hard riding to just be an awesome ride. The kind of form I'm working towards is just something I want to do. It's a wonderful thing, no lie, feeling that you're one with your machine. The rush is really indescribable, though I try my best to describe it. The years it's taken to make the basics into muscle memory only reinforce the years it's going to take to make my form into muscle memory.

I want to run The Tail of the Dragon. I know me. It's going to come soon, but not right now. I know enough to know how I'd ride it, and it intimidates me. Soon, though. Soon.

 

[buzzbomb]

Aint it great when you feel comfortable? ;-) a couple things that may help with weighting the outside peg if you havent already done is get stomp grips or something similar on the tank. Also make sure youre riding on the ball of your foot. The peg should be only a few inches back from the tip of your toes. That will let you flex your calf, pushing your toes down into the peg and your knee up into the notch of the tank gripping the stomp grip. Thats what weighting the outside peg is. Think about it like riding a bicycle. When you go around a turn on a bike the outside pedal is down and thats where your weight is.

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

Comfort level seems to be as much a danger as it is a benefit. When I was ignorant, I was comfortable. As my sport riding skills grow, I become comfortable at higher speeds, only now I know enough to realize I should never have been comfortable riding as I was. That word "comfort" kind of scares me.

Professional riders should be comfortable doing what they do. I may have those moments, but I don't think I should feel the same way, overall.

That being said, I appreciate your advice concerning loading the outside peg. My body size is such that gripping the tank is not a problem of traction, but more so of attention. Since I've decided not to drop a knee again until I get some leather, I'm gripping pretty hard. That may actually be part of my problem. It would be a whole lot easier to load the outside peg, if both legs weren't so clamped on the tank. It scares me to drop a knee again without pucks, now that I'm getting so much lower. But my riding pants have CE knee armor. I've got to think about risk vs. benefit on that one.

With my riding boots I find my feet tend to find the pegs between my foot and my toes. I know I'm supposed to be on the balls of my feet, and maybe it's just the adrenaline, making me lift my legs, but that's where my feet tend to end up. Do you think that little bit, might make a difference?

I don't think my legs slip on the tank. I've got a pretty good grip, right in the notch, where the black plastic is.

Your verbal illustration of the bicyclist in a corner makes sense. I was going to say it's not applicable, but the more I visualize it, the more sense it makes.

I've got to get back to you on that one. There's lots of differences, obviously. The stretch on the outside leg being the biggest. But since it's easy to visualize what a difference the bicyclist appreciates, maybe I can work it into my form without the trouble I'm having.

As I'm working on this post, I can't help but visualize myself being on a bicycle and loading that outside pedal. The more I think about it, the more natural it seems. Thanks! I'll get back to you after the next time I run my twisties!

It's an endless quest to get everything right, and I'm absolutely loving it.

 

[FastFreddy]

You want to stay wide most of the time on the road, and cut in for the apex only for the tightest part of the corner. Early braking and a late apex line basically.

You can drag the rear brake slightly (very slight pressure) if you are a little bit hot in the corner without changing position or bar pressure. You have to get used to how it feels to drag the rear brake in a straight line. It can help along with always saving a bit in reserve by not riding at 100%, especially if you don't have 3-5 sec visibility on some corners, there could be cyclists, wet patches, loose dirt etc.

I've thought about peg loading, but I've found that keeping each foot evenly loaded throughout works best, it allows the bike to dance underneath you that way.

Trail braking on the front brakes can work too. Just barely touching them for a moment while going in fast on corner entry to get to the ideal entry speed if you've gone in too hot.

The ideal corner, you brake early, go in too hot by carrying 5-10 km/h too much speed, scrub off that last little bit of speed as you turn in, by the action of turning in. It's hard to convey how fast you have to be turning in, everything else is easy, braking hard and accelerating hard is easy, its what you do in between that which counts the most. Get on the power gently before the apex. In any case, on the road you are always best braking early and turning in conservatively, you can add speed after you've settled for the turn, a "slow in, fast out" "late apex" line is best on the road because you can take it easy on turn in that way. The fastest way to corner is to get to that slowest part of the turn the quickest as well.

 

[FastFreddy]

Here's my tips. Between braking hard and accelerating hard is crucial to make the most difference between riders times. Same goes for car driving.

There's 3 throttle opening phases worked out. (apart from being fully off the throttle during the straight line braking phase).
Letting off the brakes is also important. I'll mention this first.

Just as you start to get off the brakes, you want to catch the front ride height and keep that smooth, so while the forks are compressed from the braking, you let them come up slowly by increasing the turning force and G force from the turn which act to compress the forks.. You probably do this without thinking about it anyway. So come off the brakes and open the throttle and turn in all at the same time progressively.

1. The initial throttle balance going into the turn. This is where you are balancing the engine braking and driving forces so the bike feels balanced front to rear turning in to the corner. The throttle is slightly open during this part, but not driving forward yet, just balanced front to rear as you aim for the apex. (like you are freewheeling on a bicycle with no engine). I find myself leaning forward and in during this phase to get more front tyre feel.


2. The initial forward drive. Just before the apex, you start to open the throttle slightly more to begin the roll on. You add power gently and early here. Your lower body doesn't move, the torso and head can lean in and forward.

3. Once you feel good that you are going to clear the corner you then get more aggressive with the throttle action, you can feel your rear tyre hurting here, don't cook them too hot and then

... finally, smile and pin it full throttle coming out of the turn.

 

[RoadTrip]

I like the 'pace' method for street riding corner entry speeds, I primarily engine brake into corners and don't pursue aggressive entry speeds, I did that for awhile and almost blew a couple of corners. So now, I do a slightly backed off entry speed with the engine braking as a kind of trail technique, then throttle thru the corner with a hard accelerating finish.

Anyways, the primary goal is to get the thrills as safely as possible, so you tend to back off a bit on the street and focus on the small details for enjoyment. The comfort part is not just about stability, but also keeping SR's in check, the bike can slip and shake a bit and everything is actually fine, it's just the bike looking for stability, you stay cool and it's all good.

 

[BKP]

Good advice re: stomp grips. Weighting the outside peg seems to elude me as well... I "think" I have the line down, my arms aren't fighting one another (outside arm is completely relaxed -- thanks Lee Parks), but, that outside peg...

 

[redprodigy35]

You know how it is, when you get it right: The bike just settles down and pulls the corner like it's sailing on the wind. It's just so smooth and so stable as you fly around that corner that it feels like you're not even on the ground.

I totally feel you on this.

Sometimes things just click and it's as if the bike and you are on the same wavelength.

Reading Keith Code has helped my form substantially.
I now concentrate on a couple aspects when rippin up some corners...

1.)Going into the corner, I speed check -- and start setting up.
2.)I "anchor" myself to the bike anticipating the line I have chosen. I don't hang too aggressively -- Code recommends one cheek on the seat.
3.)Turn in.
4.)Let the throttle "pull" me through the corner. Once it's cracked apply smoothly and increasingly throughout corner.
5.)Bike comes to a natural upright position, reseat myself to get ready for the next corner.

Basically, I try to get as much possible done before the actual corner itself. With this approach, I do not find myself mid corner with that sixth sense feeling of uncertainty.:zombie: It allows me to relax in a way due to the fact that I have pretty much taken care of everything I can before the bike is leaned over.

It's interesting as I see other people (Fast Freddy) have mentioned they put more weight on the front end for feel. Recently I have been trying to put more and more weight on the rear wheel especially the first 1/4 of corners before the apex.

 

[buzzbomb]

Wow! Too many posts to reply to individually. It's all great advice though. Some of it is what I've already accomplished and some is what I'm working towards. Some others I've got to think about.

Thank you everyone for your input. I've hopefully got another run up to my twisties on Monday. I don't normally post every time I go up there, but I'll let you know how it goes.

I'm not yet ready for anything more advanced than what I'm working on, though. I've got to get that down, first.

 

[FastFreddy]

Love how he's getting so low. I think the Suzuki rider might have the Pirelli Supercorsa tyres ?

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPnkDd0cepg]Mulholland @ 300fps - Red Epic Super Slowmo - YouTube[/ame][/QUOTE]

 

[buzzbomb]

Several days ago, I took the long ride to Rockingham, to run my twisites. I haven't posted about it, because I sucked. I made four runs on that 35 mile stretch of wonderful asphalt.

I could do nothing right. I was pushing so hard into the corners that I was a danger to myself. I simply could not get my weight off the handlebars. I would say that I couldn't take a left-hand twisty to save my life, but I did. Barely.

It was on the fourth run. My run on the way home, and nearly at the end that it hit me. I wasn't slowing down. All my previous runs on that wonderful road, I'd set up my form, downshift, and sail around the corners.

For whatever reason, I was riding beyond that. I was taking 35mph rated turns at 70 instead of 50. I wasn't riding at 80% of my riding ability. I was actually riding at beyond my riding ability.

I almost went off the road several times. It was only YEARS and YEARS of riding experience that kept me from being a statistic.

I work really hard not to run that hard. That day, I simply could not contain myself. I'm a single parent. I don't have a sexual release for my frustrations in life. My bike is my sanity. It keeps me sane by giving me an outlet for stress. I've never run that way before, though. I work so hard to keep it within 80% of my ability.

That day, I was a monster. I was on the absolute edge. A death-defying, corner-killing machine. It almost wrecked me, many times. You all know me. I'am all about safety. Next time I go up there, though? I'm afraid of myself.

Today was a day off. It wasn't a good one. Chores and errands. On one of my errands I had opportunity to take a back road that has two 15mph corners. I chose not to. I was afraid of it. I was afraid that would I push it too hard, and end up in a ditch, and afraid that I would push it too hard and succeed.

No offense intended. If you've ridden less than a decade, I honestly don't want your input. I'm not trying to be an ass, even though I sound like one. But like it or not, there is a level of difference in muscle memory and instinct that simply isn't there, if you haven't ridden for years and years and years.

That nasty bit out of the way, am I reaching a plateau that must be crossed? Or am I pushing too hard, and I need to back off?

 

[buzzbomb]

For what it's worth. I wrote the above, knowing the answer. Sometimes, I have to put thought to text, to help me think about it.

I was pushing beyond my skill and need to back down a bit.

Nearly anyone who read this post realized that. Years and years of experience? I was hoping someone would come forward and say "Yep, after so many years of trying for perfect form, I hit that. I just had to get through it."

Not surprisingly, no one came forward. To the new riders: Don't be afraid to be an ass, on the forum, if you need to work something out. It's just possible, that like me, you've simply got to put it into words, to see what is obvious.

 

[RoadTrip]

To me this is what keeps sport bike riding interesting, sometimes I struggle against myself trying to push too hard, but then I relax and flow and end up actually going faster than when trying too hard. If everything was super easy and always the same experience then it would become boring, that is typically the sign of the end of a hobby for me, fortunately this motorcycle hobby has yet to plateau and I continue to find fresh challenges and stoke. Sounds like you are doing it right to me, but yeah gettin home safe is always the primary goal.

 

[JT]

Dam reading this thread makes me want to leave work and hit up some twisties. lol

 

[buzzbomb]

Dam reading this thread makes me want to leave work and hit up some twisties. lol

Hell yeah! Hit my second favorite twisties today. They are way less technical and it's simply lean and turn. All of a sudden I can't wait to get back to my favorite road!

 

[Deathdiesel]

Really need to find a local forum to talk to some guys about finding some good, safe, nearby twisties, I hate how you guys can find a spot with enough good turns to set up for the next one immediately.

Gotta admit, most of my fun turns, arent safe, and if they are fun, the road material is awful usually.

If its both, its only slightly fun, and the posted speed is usually 50, so to make them really fun id have to be going 100+ which is just kind of unnessecary.

OT i know but anyone know of any central texas sport bike groups?

 

[RoadTrip]

ASR (Austin) group is pretty active, they know lots of secret spots:

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