Changing the timing


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Final Impact

Member
Think about it. Final drive ratio from a sprocket change would have no impact. The sensors are CPS and output shaft. That relationship is fixed based on gear selected (1-6).

An add on circuit would modify what the ecu is fed by reading the output sensor and sending a modified pulse to the ecu so it thinks for example 1st is 4th....
 
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Rumpig

Member
Final Impact said:
I recall posting an FZ6 ecu pinout for you. Have you compared pinouts and basic sensor PN/operating points, i.e. like ohms, volts, output? Maybe they can support a swap??? Crazy!

Dang - not sure where you found that info about drilling Mitsubishi ecu... You dig deep!
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Haven't compared the pinouts but other than the u's bikes having the ignition coils back to front compared to the rest of the world i'd imagine they're the same.
 
R

Rumpig

Member
BluePill said:
Yup, idea is to switch in a 2x pulse multiplier with a handlebar switch for times when some extra power is desired. You know, like a drag race with a cage. Or tight twisties. Or wheelies.

Since it would be used only a fraction of a percent of the time, the odo would be barely effected, and the speedo error would be of no concern for short times also.

While thinking about this approach, I realized that guys who do major re-gearing may be shooting themselves in the foot as far as 3rd gear power. Running something like 15/50 might put the 3rd gear ratio at a point where the ECU sees it as second and keeps the timing back.

Maybe it's just time to trade up to an FZ1?

Or maybe more?

https://youtu.be/3eEB34tVvBc

Jump to 2:10 to skip the boring stuff.
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TRE's are used to trick the bike into thinking it's always in 5th to avoid the 1st gear retardation and the top speed limiter, but as the timing is hardly different on our bike between 1st and last you wouldn't know the difference doing it that way.
 
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Final Impact

Member
Rumpig said:
Our maps compared to a stock R6 , degrees before TDC.
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Uhm - cat's out ah da bag now!






Ya, little numbers that mean a lot. I need to get caught up but I know the FZ6 isn't that bad. Me statically adding 6.5 deg made huge difference but that wasn't the right way to do it. Just quick, easy, cheap - no brainer.

So, If you look at the R6 map at 35% TPS from 6 to 10k, why did they begin pulling back so much over 40%TPS? And how does engine vacuum (the only real sense the ECU has of the work the engine is doing) play a role here? It must factor into fueling and/or advance/retard, but at what level?

Cool Stuff. Thanks for all of your work here!
 
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Final Impact

Member
Rumpig said:
The low tps high rpm area is basically off throttle engine braking. Look at this R1 map, 78 btdc!
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Agreed, no load, high vacuum, super lean so lead the spark to get a burn before exit. No load there will be no detonation. No harm. Helps meet emission standards?

For easy viewing.... R1 map
 
F

Final Impact

Member
Both R1 and R6 of those vintage are TBW? Correct? So the ecu could play a role in adjusting the load.

My point about the oem maps is that right about the time they could make peak power they pull back the timing. Perhaps its all risk based to keep it alive no matter what fuel is in it or what the rider does with the throttle. What I am used to is ramp advance to where its not detonating and maintain that (under load w throttle) vs pullung it back. However, if the manifold pressure drops a lot, you pull it back.

That said, we need to find where the manifold vacuum plays into this. It must impact fueling or ignition advance or in the case of TBW even the TPS opening.

Can manifold vacuum be identified among the 14 to 16 maps buried in the ecu?


Edit: so looking at R6 map at 9k where its about to sing, notice it goes to 46° BTDC + the 10° initial from idle and holds ithere. That fits with what I know that max advance is roughly 50 to 55° BTDC.... think about what you can to you 6R map... You could likely push towards 45 total and be safe. Install stock trigger wheel for this.
 
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R

Rumpig

Member
I think manifold vacuum is only used to keep fuel pressure constant at the 36.5 psi mark, doesn't look like there's any vacuum based maps other than the 2 fueling ones that get used below 4500 rpm and 25% throttle (estimates from using the AFR gauge.
I don't think you add the intitial 10 degrees to the 45, it's just 10 at idle and 45 total. Flashtune have a map that ramps to 44 and stays there for 91 oct so it can be done but yeah, pays to have a safety marigin and you wouldn't feel the difference of 2-4 degrees less.
R6 being their premium sportbike they would have spent a far bit of time on tuning it so I reckon copying that map would be fine.

Type " R6 ignition map " into google image search and a few different maps show up.
 

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Final Impact

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Not following you on the fuel pressure. The FZ has no pressure sensor on the fuel rail. Simply a spring regulator. Some of the R6's run 42 or 46 psi at the rail and run a return.
Point is the ecu is clueless as to the rail pressure and the pump and P/R manage that.

As for max advance. Correct I am not sure if the static initial value is added on. Really need to verify but thats near impossible without a tread mill (dyno).
 
R

Rumpig

Member
I didn't explain that very well, the manual does a better job. Basically the MAP sensor keeps the fuel pump pressure at 36psi above manifold pressure so that's how fuelling is adjusted for load.

For all the sensors the bike has the ecu basically only outputs 2 things, how much fuel to inject and when to fire it. To get more power we only really need to adjust the ignition maps and the TPS/RPM fuel map (and the rpm limiter if wanted). All the other sensors are either for safety or emissions reasons.

Came across these articles and it seems engines make max power with ignition timing around 8-10 degrees before detonation starts so a bigger safety margin probably wouldn't hurt.
AutoSpeed - Getting the Ignition Timing Right
Study and the effects of ignition timing on gasoline engine performance and emissions | SpringerLink
AutoSpeed - DIY Detonation Detection - Part 2
 

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Final Impact

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We have to agree to disagree for now.
As I know it the FZ and R family know and do nothing to adjust fuel pressure via the ecu. There is no mechanism to change it. Certainly none by the ecu. Fuel pressure is fixed by PR & pump output (70 + psi) and dumped and regulated to the value of the pressure regulator.
There is no system connecting the ecu to the PR. Pressure is fixed and injector duty cycle control fuel delivery all the time.
Anyway, lets talk.
 
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ST3RL0

New Member
Hmmm need to figure out a way to do this with changing the fuel timing (need to retard mine 2*)

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Final Impact

Member
ST3RL0 said:
Hmmm need to figure out a way to do this with(*out*) changing the fuel timing (need to retard mine 2*)

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk
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Considering it is batched fired injectors, it has less impact than say the R6 which only squirts when the valve is open.

FWIW: my valves /combustion chamber remain very clean 2+ years after doing this...
 
R

Rumpig

Member
Yeah I can do it. I'm still running a U.S ecu and have remapped that, haven't switched back to my Oz one yet but the process is the same so shouldn't be a problem.
 
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S

ST3RL0

New Member
Rumpig said:
Yeah I can do it. I'm still running a U.S ecu and have remapped that, haven't switched back to my Oz one yet but the process is the same so shouldn't be a problem.
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If I was to send an ecu up to you, would you be able to retard the timing at full throttle 2 degrees from 4800rpm onwards?



One more thing, just had a look at ecu part numbers, and the ecu "changed in 2013 (2009 to 2012 is 36P-8591A-00 and 2013 to 2017 is 36P-8591A-10). Not sure if that single digit change had any changes associated with it, but I'll get my dealership contacts to poke around.
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F

Final Impact

Member
ST3RL0 said:
If I was to send an ecu up to you, would you be able to retard the timing at full throttle 2 degrees from 4800rpm onwards?



One more thing, just had a look at ecu part numbers, and the ecu "changed in 2013 (2009 to 2012 is 36P-8591A-00 and 2013 to 2017 is 36P-8591A-10). Not sure if that single digit change had any changes associated with it, but I'll get my dealership contacts to poke around.
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OK I am curious; why would you want to retard it any more than it is? It will hurt performance and fuel efficiency. Going too far and it increases emissions and runs hotter too.

Its below 30° BTDC @5k and should be nearer 40°+ to be happy. Mind you the maps are different for 1&2, 3&4, and 5&6.
 

S

ST3RL0

New Member
Final Impact said:
OK I am curious; why would you want to retard it any more than it is? It will hurt performance and fuel efficiency. Going too far and it increases emissions and runs hotter too.

Its below 30° BTDC @5k and should be nearer 40°+ to be happy. Mind you the maps are different for 1&2, 3&4, and 5&6.
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Time to start stepping up the nitrous to be honest. Most likely won't get to that jet size (50hp) but rather have that envelope.

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