questions about guns

[MichaelInVenice]

Despite what anyone says, a 22 has enough power to drop anything in North America.Im not saying that its an ideal self defense weapon, just that its a sensible place to start.With the price of ammo it will actually pay for itself compared to shooting a 9mm or 45 alot.

I love my Walther p22, I allways throw it in my pocket when I hike and stuff.Its small enough to forget your carrying, but large enough to fully fit your hand.

My cousin bought one of the Ruger Lcp 380's.The Walther fits my hand alot better, and definitely has a edge in accuracy.When a target silhouette becomes hard to hit with the Lcp, the little Walther will still hit a tin can at ease.Its a pretty cool little gun for its price.

I'll disagree on the "drop anything in North America" bit because I sure wouldn't want to count on it if I came up against a bear or even a bigger cat, but I will agree that it is perfectly adequate as a self-defense firearm against humans if you take care to learn how to use it. If you're on-target with a .22 and the guy isn't wearing body-armor, it will get the job done. The key is "on target" and that demands training and practice. Fortunately, as noted, .22s are super-cheap so there's no excuse to not get that level of practice.

(One of the things to consider is that some of the firearms mentioned above have .22 conversion kits. Basically you swap out the barrel, the magazine and sometimes the entire slide and you can shoot .22s. Very useful way to get lots of cheap practice while still getting used to the ergonomics of the gun.

I'll disagree on the Glock too. Nothing wrong with the lack of external safety so long as you get trained and use your brain. The only way it can go off is if you put your finger on the trigger and squeeze. The internal safety prevents any other possibilities. If you are in the bad habit of getting your finger where it shouldn't be when it shouldn't be there, then yeah, it can be a problem. They do put a premium on getting trained right, with an instructor who will happily slap your finger and the rest of you if he sees your finger on the trigger before the barrel is pointed at the target. A model 22 (.40cal version of the 17) was my first. I've since traded for a P229, which is a far better made firearm. I found that the Glocks in .40 tended to have minor component failures more frequently than I would have liked. An FBI guy I know confirmed the problem. Said they were a great service weapon because they're light, easy to use and the failures aren't a problem because they have an armorer to examine and rebuild theirs every year anyway...

 

[BKP]

Already mentioned I have a G19 for carry. I find the combination of the internal safeties, which allow initial shot to be SA, yet is essentially impossible to discharge accidentally, whether properly deploying, or even dropping the handgun (of course, if you're a yahoo that runs around with your finger *inside* the trigger guard, all bets are off for *any* handgun). So, I fail to see the issue with it being a "first gun." If anything, it's safer than a cocked and locked SA/DA because both the firing pin is blocked, and the trigger bar is not aligned until both the trigger and trigger safety are squeezed. This has to be a deliberate action.

That said, I'm also a big fan of the Baretta 92fs (although, I don't find it to be the most accurate of those I own); the Sig P226 (which I've owned for 15 years, and is probably my most oft-used range gun, because like the Glock, it will feed shredded wheat without an FTF), and groups well, due to limited recoil (it's a heavy gun); Browning Hi-Power; and S&W MP. All very solid reliable guns, with completely disparate ergonomics, and therefore will have completely disparate advocates.

I am *not* a fan of Taurus semi-autos, and I've owned both the PT92, and PT908. The 92 was pretty good, although did not distinguish itself above the aforementioned in terms of accuracy or FTF. The 908 absolutely sucked, and would stovepipe mercilessly. In fact, I still have the 908 around here somewhere because it wasn't worth selling, and if a potential thief tries grabbing it, he'll probably get himself killed trying to deploy it. However, the Taurus revolvers are another matter. Excellent guns. In fact, if I were to carry a revolver, it would be either the S&W, Ruger SP101 or the Taurus Judge.

This is not a defense of any of the above, but rather my personal perspective. And, handguns are most certainly a personal matter. So, personally, as a carry gun, for me it's the Glock 19 (with a Galco out-of-waistband holster):

 

[dart1963]

hey guys im actually in the market to buy a handgun i been looking at a glock 17 you have any advice for me i have already read the doj safety guide and all that just seeing if any experienced shooters got any advice for me fyi i have never gone shooting before and i do live pretty close to a range and thought it would be a great hobby to pick up

start here: NRA Gun Safety Rules

go to a range and talk to them, most will have a reasonably priced training session. Even if you are not considering a concealed carry permit, it is a great class to take. A 22 is a perfect gun to learn and practice with, though the prices will be only a fraction less than a 9, 40 or 45, you will make it up in ammo costs.

If you have wife/kids, educate them as well. It's not enough to "lock it up" and think they will never touch it... educate them.

I personally think Glock is overrated... they were one of the first polymer handguns, and so have a reputation... but I personally have two S&W handguns and love them. Have shot para, SIG and H&K and love them (but they do come with a price). I did not like the way Glocks felt in my hands, so by all means, try before you buy.

 

[bleedinblue]

A CCI mini mag will punch through one side of a cinder block.I said its not ideal for self defense, but it WILL drop anything in North America.Just watch Swamp People for a quick example, most of the hunters use a .22lr or a .17hmr.I admit that they are hunting from a boat instead of fighting for life, but the .22s still scramble the brain on a 13' gator, wich is respectable for something so small.The same thing goes towards deer, while you cant drop a running deer with a 22lr, if you ever find a deer crippled by a car a 22 will put it out of misery quickly.

All I meant is that a 22 is a textbook gun to own as a first.You will save money plinking, and learn more from mastering a rimfire before diving into centerfire.Being able to hunt limited game, or use it for basic self defense is just a bonus.

I live at the edge of my town, close to railroad tracks.Junkies use the tracks like a safeplace, less police to worry about when you have a chunk of meth on you I guess, but I mainly worry about running into a rabbid coyote or something.So I usually carry my 22 when I walk my dog for multiple safety reasons.

Around town I prefer a 22 over my 9mm just because I don't have to worry about over penetration, or ricochet if I ever needed to defend myself.Every bullet fired will have an attorney attached to it, and It would be pretty stupid to create an added incident just to feel as safe as Rambo.Even if I run into a bath salt zombie thats carrying a 45 im not worried about being outgunned, iv shot thousands of rounds out of my little 22.The criminal better pray that hes done the same or he wouldn't have a chance.Its all I need daily, unless I stray into gang territory.

 

[buckwild]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ain2by4Fums]DEA Agent shoots himself in the foot. - YouTube[/ame]

You are all very correct that without pressure on the trigger the Glock will NOT fire, however even trained professionals make mistakes

*EDIT* My use of the word "professional" is very loose in this example....

 

[BKP]

After cycling the slide with a hot magazine, which is what he did, ANY gun would have fired when that idiot pulled the trigger. Brand is immaterial in that case.

He had *NO* business racking that gun without checking the mag.

 

[buckwild]

ANY gun without a lever safety would have fired, that little walther p22 would not have fired, nor would an HK USP, as they have lever both have a lever indicated safety.

The only point I am trying to make is for a fresh pistol shooter, the more safety the better, althought NO safety system should be trusted and your own trigger control should be the same reguardless of it you have a glock or something de-cocked with a safety on.

 

[BoneJj]

I've had mine since March 2008, PT 24/7 Pro model in .40 caliber w/ 15 rd mags = $376. After 2,000+ rounds - the only issue I ever have is a failure to feed every 200-300 rounds. After cleaning and lubing the magazines the problem goes away. Mostly shoot winchester white box or blazer brass. If you plan on putting 10,000 rounds through it in a year then yea I could see it wearing out....but if you've got that kind of time and money then a Taurus is the wrong tool for you.

Old review of it (actually compared to Glock 19):
Taurus PT 24/7 Std: Value Defender, Part 1 - YouTube

Those are the issues that would aggravate the heck out of me. I like to put a good 3k rounds through my main plinkers each year.

Despite what anyone says, a 22 has enough power to drop anything in North America.Im not saying that its an ideal self defense weapon, just that its a sensible place to start.With the price of ammo it will actually pay for itself compared to shooting a 9mm or 45 alot.

I love my Walther p22, I allways throw it in my pocket when I hike and stuff.Its small enough to forget your carrying, but large enough to fully fit your hand.

My cousin bought one of the Ruger Lcp 380's.The Walther fits my hand alot better, and definitely has a edge in accuracy.When a target silhouette becomes hard to hit with the Lcp, the little Walther will still hit a tin can at ease.Its a pretty cool little gun for its price.

22s can hold their own in a lot of situations but I would still prefer something more to the 9mm punch though. I think that the 9mm is a great all purpose round.
I would actual like to test out a few of the walther models as I have a few friends that I served with that have recommended them to me as well.

ANY gun without a lever safety would have fired, that little walther p22 would not have fired, nor would an HK USP, as they have lever both have a lever indicated safety.

The only point I am trying to make is for a fresh pistol shooter, the more safety the better, althought NO safety system should be trusted and your own trigger control should be the same reguardless of it you have a glock or something de-cocked with a safety on.

I agree.

 

[MichaelInVenice]

ANY gun without a lever safety would have fired, that little walther p22 would not have fired, nor would an HK USP, as they have lever both have a lever indicated safety.

The only point I am trying to make is for a fresh pistol shooter, the more safety the better, althought NO safety system should be trusted and your own trigger control should be the same reguardless of it you have a glock or something de-cocked with a safety on.

Anybody who's that dumb could probably not be counted on to have the safety on in the first place. Which I guess is the point. My Sig has no safety of the traditional external type either. Just the decocker, which is irrelevant in a DAO like the Glock.

 

[MichaelInVenice]

A CCI mini mag will punch through one side of a cinder block.I said its not ideal for self defense, but it WILL drop anything in North America.Just watch Swamp People for a quick example, most of the hunters use a .22lr or a .17hmr.I admit that they are hunting from a boat instead of fighting for life, but the .22s still scramble the brain on a 13' gator, wich is respectable for something so small.The same thing goes towards deer, while you cant drop a running deer with a 22lr, if you ever find a deer crippled by a car a 22 will put it out of misery quickly.

All I meant is that a 22 is a textbook gun to own as a first.You will save money plinking, and learn more from mastering a rimfire before diving into centerfire.Being able to hunt limited game, or use it for basic self defense is just a bonus.

I live at the edge of my town, close to railroad tracks.Junkies use the tracks like a safeplace, less police to worry about when you have a chunk of meth on you I guess, but I mainly worry about running into a rabbid coyote or something.So I usually carry my 22 when I walk my dog for multiple safety reasons.

Around town I prefer a 22 over my 9mm just because I don't have to worry about over penetration, or ricochet if I ever needed to defend myself.Every bullet fired will have an attorney attached to it, and It would be pretty stupid to create an added incident just to feel as safe as Rambo.Even if I run into a bath salt zombie thats carrying a 45 im not worried about being outgunned, iv shot thousands of rounds out of my little 22.The criminal better pray that hes done the same or he wouldn't have a chance.Its all I need daily, unless I stray into gang territory.

Don't disagree. We just have a slightly different definition of what it means to "drop" game. I wasn't thinking in terms of close-in head shots, as that's not likely to be a realistic scenario in most cases. Still, I think the P22 with Velocitors works wonderfully. Got one myself.

A bit off topic but there is a huge difference between the energy you get from a .22LR coming out of a rifle (which is what the guys on Swamp People always use) vs. a short-barreled pistol. You'll only get a fraction of the energy from a 4" handgun, compared to a 10/22 rifle. Still enough to do serious damage at close range, but loses effectiveness quickly as the distance increases.

 

[spider2k]

just an fyi. you will find issues with nearly any manufacturer. taurus makes a great gun. ive owned my 92 since i was 21(14 years now) and the ONLY issue ive had was the locking block which was my own fault. sent it back and not only did they fix it, they replaced any other wear items including the grips while they had it.

a 92 frame(either taurus or beretta)is a great first gun in my opinion, as long as you have large enough hands to handle it.

 

[roundhouse]

Despite what anyone says, a 22 has enough power to drop anything in North America.Im not saying that its an ideal self defense weapon, just that its a sensible place to start.With the price of ammo it will actually pay for itself compared to shooting a 9mm or 45 alot.

I love my Walther p22, I allways throw it in my pocket when I hike and stuff.Its small enough to forget your carrying, but large enough to fully fit your hand.

My cousin bought one of the Ruger Lcp 380's.The Walther fits my hand alot better, and definitely has a edge in accuracy.When a target silhouette becomes hard to hit with the Lcp, the little Walther will still hit a tin can at ease.Its a pretty cool little gun for its price.

i have a P22 as well but it would not be my first choice with my life on the line. while i agree it is a fine pistol i want more kinetic energy from my projectile.

 

[BKP]

ANY gun without a lever safety would have fired, that little walther p22 would not have fired, nor would an HK USP, as they have lever both have a lever indicated safety.

The only point I am trying to make is for a fresh pistol shooter, the more safety the better, althought NO safety system should be trusted and your own trigger control should be the same reguardless of it you have a glock or something de-cocked with a safety on.

The majority of handguns will NOT cycle with the external safety on to begin with, some will only cycle with the safety on if you have the hammer cocked.
This guy cycled his firearm. It makes this conversation moot.

If the aim is to carry concealed, I question your concept of "safety." Carrying a handgun in Condition Three is the safest (in regard to accidental discharge): hammer down, safety on, chamber empty. However, in terms of deployment (which is the purpose of carrying concealed, should you ever need to), it's the most dangerous, and will most probably get you killed in any situation hostile and threatening enough where you feel you're justified to deploy.

Condition One (standard 1911 .45 carry): chambered, cocked, external safety on, is the closest you can get to fastest deployment (just short of the Glock), which is why it's the favored method for those that carry 1911s.

If your purpose is simply a range gun, then the "safest" method (which is also range rules) is gun cleared, and no magazine loaded. At that point an external safety is also moot.
Same holds true for cleaning, inspecting your firearm.

 

[dart1963]

lets try to keep this on topic... OP is just asking for opinions on which handgun to get.

 

[BKP]

Understand. However, friendly debate on the pros/cons of the different models/features/purpose aids in answering that question... no?

 

[MichaelInVenice]

Which one to get for a first gun?

Start with what fits his hand best.

Then worry about all the rest.

Second or third gun, once you have your specific needs and preferences nailed down a bit more, I'd maybe worry a bit less about initial fit, as you'll probably customize grips, and other things anyway. You don't want a bad fit, but you're probably OK with one that gives you all the features you want that is close enough to be customized with grips, etc. Just like a bike really.

 

[spider2k]

too bad you're not over here. I'd take you to the range and let you shoot a few different ones to see what fits you.

 

[vengeance44]

well im actually gonna try to go to the range with a buddy of mine he has a g17 so im gonna try it out and see how it fits and feels

 

[killabee]

I live in CA also. My first gun was a Glock 19 OD. Love it and haven't had any issues with it. Get your license and go to the range to get some practice/help from workers there.



As far as concealed carry in CA, forget about it unless you're currently a peace officer.