Nonsense Comparison

[Doncan]

I was reading 2 articles about our motorcycle's european versions ('09 half-faired non-ABS vs '10 full-faired with ABS) in Motorcycle News Magazine. The magazine gives the '09 half-faired, non-ABS version excellent reviews against so-so reviews to the '10 full-faired, ABS version claiming at the end that the '09 is a better buy overall even though the only differences are the fairings and ABS. What am I missing ??

http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/bikereviews/searchresults/Yamaha/XJ6-DIVERSION/_/N-148+2817+189

 

[Bloke]

It's the extra weight and cost I think..though it is a bit weird.

Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk

 

[dart1963]

ABS is not a "better buy"... might be better performance, but until it is a required feature and the costs come down, it is too expensive.

Don't get me wrong, I've seen the BMW demos and it could be useful in emergency or wet braking, it is a nice feature, but it's still a cost adder of about %15-20 more.

Just my $.02

 

[rr_double_rr]

I'm not a fan of ABS only because it allows a computer to try to fight me when I need the bike to do what I am commanding it to. I think of it the same way as if they put traction control on these things.

You've got to be pretty far out on the edge to actually feel the adverse affects of ABS, and for you tourer minded guys it probably is a great option since you ride in all conditions and they change at an instant. Me, I don't mess with rain or ice. I don't mess with the cold too terribly much either, although ATL isn't as bad as Alberta, admittedly. I'm very nervous of wet road markings, and conversely, cold pavement. So I run in the temperate bands the vast majority of the time, and the only instances where ABS would kick in is when I'm running hard in the mountains and get surprised or just need to stop fast. For that, I prefer to be in control of the bike and not have a computer in the way.

Just my .02.

 

[Chucker]

I'm thinking they are simply saying, dollar for dollar, the '09 is a better buy, as it's cheaper and the increase in cost to get fairing lowers and ABS isn't worth it.

Also, sometimes magazine's are harder on a bike after the first year if there haven't been any significant improvements. I had a '82 Yamaha Vision that was considered the best 550 sportbike in '82. All of those magazines that said it was the best in '82 slaughtered it in '83 because the only change was a fairing and dual front discs. The bike itself was actually a bit better, but Honda, Kawasaki and Suzuki all came out with new bikes that were better than the Vision.

 

[rr_double_rr]

I'm thinking they are simply saying, dollar for dollar, the '09 is a better buy, as it's cheaper and the increase in cost to get fairing lowers and ABS isn't worth it.

Also, sometimes magazine's are harder on a bikes after the first year if there haven't been any significant improvements. I had a '82 Yamaha Vision that was considered the best 550 sportbike in '82. All of those magazines that said it was the best in '82 slaughtered it in '83 because the only change was a fairing and dual front discs. The bike itself was actually a bit better, but Honda, Kawasaki and Suzuki all came out with new bikes that were better than the Vision.

Agreed. I've seen them thrash a new model year bike because it didn't really innovate rather than update.

ABS, even when lowered in price, should still be an option in my book just because it has the opportunity to really mess up a rider if it works against them. In a cage, since they are all weather vehicles and have 4 trac pads opposed to the bikes 2 are usually more forgiving and can tolerate a computer between road and driver. Sure, bikes can be all weather, too, but the vast majority of riders don't mess with rain or cold anyway since they're exposed. So like you said, the cost vs. benefit isn't inline with what it should be right now, all I'm saying is that I don't think those archs should ever really touch.

 

[Bloke]

ABS can normally be switched, at least on the bikes I've seen with it as it's crap for trackdays.

That said in everyday riding, and with my lack of experience. I'd be thankful for it, no more locked up rear and it'll provide more breaking force than if I tried to modulate it manually.

Am I faster or better than a computer that is analysing a dozen things and able to modulate the brakes way faster than I can.

I'd have to wait for a lock to occur (yes you "know" how hard you can brake normally but throw a bit of wet mud on the floor and try again), then recover. The computer would respond before it happened, or before I could dream of doing.

Me... I ride the '09 xj6 diversion so no abs

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[UselessPickles]

I don't understand all this talk about ABS being a "computer that gets in the way of what the rider is trying to do" and "messing up the rider if it works against them".

What kind of situation on a street bike could be made worse by ABS? The only thing it's "getting in the way" of is locking up your tires. If ABS kicks in, it's because your tires are already starting to lock up and you have exceeded maximum braking. When would you ever prefer one of your wheels to fully lock up on a street bike (aside from trying to stunt and skid your back tire around or something equally foolish)?

Or is this just a general opinion of "I don't trust computers, and it might fail"? If ABS fails, it will behave as if there is no ABS. If you use ABS as a learning tool to discover where the braking limits are, and continue to practice proper braking techniques (rather than using ABS as a crutch and sloppily grabbing a handful of front brake all the time), then your ABS should only ever kick in during unusual emergency situations where you otherwise would have lost control without ABS. If used properly, an unlikely ABS failure cannot possibly be any worse than simply not having ABS.

The only situations I know of where you specifically DON'T want ABS is certain off-road situations, like loose dirt, gravel, etc.. Locking up your brakes on those surfaces actually produces more braking force due to the material piling up in front of the tire as it slides. That's why adventure and dual-sport bikes with ABS (like many of the BMWs) have an option to turn ABS off. Pure street bikes (like my FJR) don't have that option, because it's not expected to be driving in loose off-road conditions.

I have had ABS on two bikes so far: BMW F650GS and Yamaha FJR1300. ABS has never "gotten in my way", but it has saved my butt a few times in situations such as a car pulling out in front of me, causing me to brake hard on a rough road with bumps and a bit of gravel. It has also taught me that I can brake much harder than I thought I could, especially on wet roads. Without ABS, the only way to find the max braking limit is to excede it. Most people would prefern not to voluntarily lock up their front tire to find that limit.

There are a couple reports/tests/etc that show that typical riders (anyone but professional riders) can stop significantly quicker on a bike with ABS on clear/dry pavement (they're not worrying about braking too hard and locking the brakes). In less ideal conditions, even the professional racers stop quicker with ABS. You're just fooling yourself if you believe you can brake better out on the street (often non-ideal conditions) without ABS "getting in the way".

-- END RANT --

 

[erionalite]

I second UselessPickles.

ABS , is something you really want on your bike. It will save you from locking your tires. On the track, of course you want to not use it, but on the street, it will save you from laying down your bike.

ABS is worth every penny, it is unfortunate that in USA they don't require ABS for motorcycles.

No rider can do better then ABS. If ABS kicks in, means the bike was operated incorrectly and ABS is the system that might save you from sliding on the grass or a tree.

 

[UselessPickles]

ABS , is something you really want on your bike...

ABS is worth every penny...

Although I do agree with these statements, it is subjective opinion that is up to each rider to decide. There are definite safety benefits to ABS:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Zv3Sacl7JQ"]evidence[/ame]

So you say that's just a staged marketing demo? How about some real world data? (the "Wet Pavement Braking over Sewer Cover" section is especially eye-opening). BTW - that report is about 20 years old. It would be interesting to see a similar test done with modern bikes to see if ABS systems have improved since then.

...but it comes at a cost of money and weight.

Arguing and expressing opinions/reasons about the importance of ABS and whether ABS is worth the cost is perfectly valid and constructive for helping other people decide, because it involves expressing opinions from people with different needs, desires, riding habits, budgets, etc. It's just the claims that ABS on a street bike wouldn't be beneficial to a certain person due to skill level or riding habits that is complete nonsense, because the street and traffic (and sometimes weather) are unpredictable. The claims that ABS will impair riding ability are even more outrageous and uninformed.

I do like ABS a lot, but I would not refuse to buy a bike that does not have ABS available. I think I would always choose ABS as an option if possible.

 

[klawson]

I realize I am talking about an entirely different "animal", but the system
works the same.
In my former life I was an instructor on large commercial aircraft. All had
ABS. I demonstrated hundreds of times that you could not out brake the
ABS system. There were those that thought they could, but it never happened.

I have to agree with UselessPickles, given the option, I would not hesitate if
the price is right to get ABS on a bike.

 

[leprecaun jon]

completely away from the fz6r but the cbr 250 is a pretty good price with abs on it... i know thats no comparison to big bikes but its a start isnt it?

 

[pilninggas]

I was reading 2 articles about our motorcycle's european versions ('09 half-faired non-ABS vs '10 full-faired with ABS) in Motorcycle News Magazine. The magazine gives the '09 half-faired, non-ABS version excellent reviews against so-so reviews to the '10 full-faired, ABS version claiming at the end that the '09 is a better buy overall even though the only differences are the fairings and ABS. What am I missing ??

http://www.motorcyclenews.com/MCN/bikereviews/searchresults/Yamaha/XJ6-DIVERSION/_/N-148+2817+189

It's not really to do with the ABS. It's more the fact that the 09 half-faired [S-diversion] came out first and so set the stall for the model, allied to a good price (about £5000) originally it undercut similar rivals (gsxf650, ER6). The full faired [F] model arrived after the exchange rate had shifted beyond the point the importer could keep the price down, and so the F has recieved reviews that reflect the price increase - i think the RRP (mssp) is £7000, which was the RRP for R6 only 2.5 years ago.

The F is better, but dealers are not offering the discounts that they were on the S-diversion. Dealers here are also trying to paint it's image as almost being a sports bike. The middleweight, allrounders as well as 125cc bikes have almost kept so japanese dealers going with the appalling exchange rate and the credit crunch.

MCN often hype up the first model of a new range (when the manufacturer is paying the most in advert-space) and then relax their view as time passes (get more honest?).

 

[Hellgate]

Agreed. I've seen them thrash a new model year bike because it didn't really innovate rather than update.

ABS, even when lowered in price, should still be an option in my book just because it has the opportunity to really mess up a rider if it works against them. In a cage, since they are all weather vehicles and have 4 trac pads opposed to the bikes 2 are usually more forgiving and can tolerate a computer between road and driver. Sure, bikes can be all weather, too, but the vast majority of riders don't mess with rain or cold anyway since they're exposed. So like you said, the cost vs. benefit isn't inline with what it should be right now, all I'm saying is that I don't think those archs should ever really touch.

From your post I can tell that you have a great deal of first person experiance with ABS on a bike.

 

[JonKerr]

If you're riding your bike on the edge and you're expecting the braking limits to be a given point, (when the tiers do actually lock up, you will let off before then if you're a talented enough rider to be riding at that speed to begin with.) ABS kicks in before you get to that limit, therefore letting off the brakes before you would and possibly causing you to run wide through a corner. Same sort of thing with traction control. If you're a good enough rider to utilize some wheel spin in the corners, which in some cases is the fastest way around the track, you may not want a computer to kick in and adjust that for you. There are some TC systems out there that are sophisticated enough though that they'll help you use that wheel spin properly. You may want a system like that though. But it's all personal preference. Mind you, riding that hard should be saved for the track but still, if you take your street bike to the track and are riding at those limits in good weather, high grip conditions, they can cause some major issues. There's a reason Josh Hayes runs NO electronic rider aids on his bike. Other racers say the new crop of bikes are so powerful they couldn't ride without it. Again, it's a personal feel thing and very subjective. I don't think there's a race bike out there that actually utilizes ABS on the track. The racer wants to get every last little bit of braking power out of that bike. I think ABS would slow down a track bike tremendously. Personally, because I don't ride in bad weather but do like to be aggressive with the throttle coming out of corners when riding spiritedly, I wouldn't want ABS but wouldn't mind having traction control since I know I don't have the riding skill and throttle control of a Josh Hayes to handle the 180+hp or a superbike if that's what I was riding on the street.

 

[UselessPickles]

If you're riding your bike on the edge...

Then you are racing on a race bike on a race track, and most of the surprises of road conditions and traffic that cause panic stops are taken out of the equation. You're also a very skilled rider that knows the exact limits and are relying on predictable track conditions. You are competing at a high level, and any slight edge you can get on your competition could mean the difference between a win and a loss. ABS not allowing you to ride on that fine line between max braking and loss of control, then it could harm your lap times. You are willing to accept the risk of possibly crashing out to get that slight edge over the competition.

My assertion was that there is never a situation on a street bike where ABS would "get in your way" (implying that you are riding the bike on the street - unpredictable road conditions, traffic, etc.). You should not be riding your street bike on the edge of its limits on the street.

ABS would even be quite useful on the race track for someone that is not an expert racer. It would be a good training aid to help learn where the limits of braking are without crashing every time that you find those limits.

 

[dart1963]

was riding with a guy last weekend on Skyline who went to the Ducati experience this year. He got to ride the diavel and multistrada with ABS and DTC.... said he came around a turn a with the group, into a pile of gravel on the road... said if it were not for DTC, he would have lowsided for sure, but, since the DTC kicked in, he road like there was nothing there...

like I said earlier, I think both are good for performance on the street, with any road conditions.... but they are not worth the extra cost right now, they are a significant cost adder for the few times you might need them.

Emergency braking is a learned skill, we know to progressively pull our brakes, not panic pull.. in most cases, a swerve will serve you better than a brake, in some cases, no matter what you do, or if you have ABS or TC, you're going to come out badly

 

[JonKerr]

Then you are racing on a race bike on a race track, and most of the surprises of road conditions and traffic that cause panic stops are taken out of the equation. You're also a very skilled rider that knows the exact limits and are relying on predictable track conditions. You are competing at a high level, and any slight edge you can get on your competition could mean the difference between a win and a loss. ABS not allowing you to ride on that fine line between max braking and loss of control, then it could harm your lap times. You are willing to accept the risk of possibly crashing out to get that slight edge over the competition.

My assertion was that there is never a situation on a street bike where ABS would "get in your way" (implying that you are riding the bike on the street - unpredictable road conditions, traffic, etc.). You should not be riding your street bike on the edge of its limits on the street.

ABS would even be quite useful on the race track for someone that is not an expert racer. It would be a good training aid to help learn where the limits of braking are without crashing every time that you find those limits.

If you read my post fully, you would see that I put just that in there, that if you're riding to that limit, you should be on the track and not on the street.

 

[Fizzer6R]

latest issue of Sport Rider Magazine has ABS sportbike shootout between the BMW S 1000 RR, Honda CBR1000RR ABS, and the Kawasaki ZX-10R ABS

 

[b_who]

I honestly like that more sport bikes are having ABS, BUT as an option on their bikes.
lets face it probably 99% of us on here can't out brake an abs system even in good track conditions without practicing over and over and over again at the same corner

but when it comes to everyday riding where there's a lot of unknown I would prefer to have it on and especially while commuting. I've had a radiator spew everything in front of me from a car on the freeway, oil which was tons of fun to go through, and oranges :banghead: those little bastards can really mess with a tries traction. As long as i can switch it off say for track days i don't mind it and from what i remember reading about them they do seem a little to overpriced from what ive seen with Honda's CBR 600 adding an extra grand for abs but im sure it'll come down the more its developed.

So for me if i had the money and the option id definitely get it along with my next bike but like Jonker said it has a lot to do with Personal Preference