Flashing lights = first amendment

[Pinarello Rider]

Let's get this out of the way:

I hate cops being used as revenue generators. I also hate cops with power trips. I respect the job that they have to do, but using them to generate revenue (rather than enforce the law) is insulting to us as tax payers and the professionals that many of our LEOs truly are.

So it should come as no surprise that I would go out of my way to prevent someone from being a victim of this type of revenue stream. But, I have strayed away from flashing lights because people have been convicted of obstruction of justice for notifying people of a trap.

This case is interesting. Free speech? Seems logical to me. What say you?

http://news.yahoo.com/flashing-car-headlights-protected-first-amendment-103216345.html

 

[Rabbitman109]

I want to put this out there now. This already is starting off on a fine line. Careful how you respond, we have rules about this type of thread....

 

[Pinarello Rider]

I want to put this out there now. This already is starting off on a fine line. Careful how you respond, we have rules about this type of thread....

Fair warning: I reviewed forum rules and this is applicable, I think.

Running from the cops.
Police bashing/slander.
Breaking the law.
No satanic threads/links etc.
Politics. Unless posted in the Underground Politics area
Any form or racism PERIOD.

I don't think the question does any of these, but I did post this because it is a question of application of laws.

 

[Rabbitman109]

Fair warning: I reviewed forum rules and this is applicable, I think.

Your thread is fine. I am saying that it has the opportunity to get into an un-acceptable zone. It is a fine line. It was just a friendly reminder BEFORE it gets out of hand. Continue....

 

[Scott_Thomas]

I don't think anything posted here is against forum rules. He said he respects the jobs that Leo's do. Entrapment is rampant in the states. In the UK police are REQUIRED to post a sign saying they are conducting speed traps and if cameras are in operation. If the cameras and traps are there as deterrents then doesn't it make sense to warn so that people slow down. Leo's say that's the goal, but if you are telling people after you ticket them you have ZERO credibility in my book. Many states say that Leo's have to be visible and can't hide when conducting speed traps. I agree that these are solely for revenue, prove otherwise and I'll retract. Never once saw an accident in the UK and most stayed with the speed limits. FYI, most UK cameras didn't have film in them. They were solely for deterrent.

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[dart1963]

I always have and always will flash my lights for speed traps, hazards, etc. ahead to warn other drivers... same on the bike, only it's a tap on the helmet with my left hand.

I personally believe the arbitrary use of limits doesn't make it right or wrong... but as a society, we have allowed these limits to stay in place, until we as a society deem speed limits not needed any more... I will keep my speeds at those limits. I'm glad to see many state governors are raising speed limits on interstates... I was furious in dc, they raised the limits on the "paid" expressway, while leaving the 55 limits on place for the non-pay beltway... if it is for safety, then the same speed increases could be done on non-pay roads...

has nothing to do with hating cops... they have a job to do, that's like hating a business for charging you tax on purchases... might hate to pay the tax, but don't take it out on the person enforcing it.

 

[Alex6]

I always try to warn the oncoming traffic of the revenue collectors hiding down the road. In my car I flash the lights, on the bike I tap the top of my helmet. I've been saved before and try to repay the favor to the next fellow who might do the same to someone else, who might save me the next time I'm on the 'paid' road.

 

[Pinarello Rider]

Is this free speech or is this interfering with the police?

I've always thought of it as interfering with police business, even though I REALLY want to warn other drivers.

 

[Scott_Thomas]

Is this free speech or is this interfering with the police?

I've always thought of it as interfering with police business, even though I REALLY want to warn other drivers.

Interfering with entrapment should not be punishable by law. I vote freedom of speech! I am not saying in any way I condone speeding, but everyone does it and if you say you don't I won't believe you. Truckers relay to other drivers about speed traps via CB radio. Works better than a radar detector. Can the police prove that I flashed my lights to warn other? Nope, that's why enforcing the obstruction ticket doesn't hold up. What one LEO considers speeding another may not. I have had LEO's blow by me well over the speed limit (without lights or siren). Mostly depends on if they have a quota to meet (IMO). I have friends that are LEO's and they all set quotas for patrolmen.

 

[Brock Kickass]

Traditionally, a pat on top of your own helmet with your left hand is a way to communicate LEO ahead to other motorcyclists. Some also use a twirl of the finger. I find it to be more subtle than a flashing headlight, and less enforcable. In Ontario, you will commonly be charged with improper use of heqadlight, so this system avoids that charge. Also, a cruiser 1/2 mile down the road is less likely to notice/understand the gesture. It's communicates well to the vehicle immediately oncoming, but isn't noticable from a distance the way a flashing headlight is. In my car, I will tap the brights if I notice someone running pretty quickly, but not indiscriminately at every car I see. My thinking is that, were I to be pulled over for it, I could argue that this guy was driving like a knob and I was flashing to make myself more visible because I was worried he might come in to my lane.

As far as the using LEO's to generate revenue, it is a whole other problem. A lot of front-line officers are not comfortabe with it, but the strategy is coming from government, not the police forces themselves. The municipality or other applicable governing body sets a traget revenue for traffic tickets and leaves it up to the police force to meet that target. If you want to change the system, it is a lot more effective to make your voice heard to your elected representatives. When you complain to a cop about it, they often have the exact same complaint. They are just doing a job like anyone else, taking direction from the top.

Now as for power trip cops, that is a matter that isn't really applicable here. There are bullies in every workplace. They need to be dealt with by their superiors on an individual basis, just like anywhere else.

 

[Pinarello Rider]

Interfering with entrapment should not be punishable by law. I vote freedom of speech! I am not saying in any way I condone speeding, but everyone does it and if you say you don't I won't believe you. Truckers relay to other drivers about speed traps via CB radio. Works better than a radar detector. Can the police prove that I flashed my lights to warn other? Nope, that's why enforcing the obstruction ticket doesn't hold up. What one LEO considers speeding another may not. I have had LEO's blow by me well over the speed limit (without lights or siren). Mostly depends on if they have a quota to meet (IMO). I have friends that are LEO's and they all set quotas for patrolmen.

The police don't need to prove anything when they hand you the ticket to ruin your day, and then another day when you have to go to court to fight it.

I don't know that this is a free speech issue. I do disagree with the premise that you can't alert drivers to the impending speed trap though. That is like stopping land owners from posting "no trespassing" signs.

 

[leprecaun jon]

Is this free speech or is this interfering with the police?

I've always thought of it as interfering with police business, even though I REALLY want to warn other drivers.

it is simply both... yes you are interfering with police business however it is located in a public access area, is not obscured that it may be seen as confidential...there are no on duty officers, there is no tape or barrier claiming an on going investigation....and if no law was broken to begin with then what warrants a speed trap? ( a public access road or area is an area in which the public or anyone on foot....can enter or exit freely an area unmarked as private property and in which there is no privacy to the public or government unless farther stated or displayed) unless the speed trap is placed at a toll or private government property its public access...therefore warning of the speed trap is in no way a violation of law.


often those speed traps misread.... as i witness last week my boss and i were traveling south bound on 95 doing around 60-65.... the speed trap read 82MPH....now there is no way the speedometer is off by 20% or more.

 

[Alex6]

Is this free speech or is this interfering with the police?

IMO, it's neither. Non-issue whatsoever.

 

[MiltonDorkenhoff]

Interfering with entrapment should not be punishable by law. I vote freedom of speech! I am not saying in any way I condone speeding, but everyone does it and if you say you don't I won't believe you. .

It's not entrapment. The police are not forcing/inducing anyone to speed.

 

[Cerebus]

It's not entrapment. The police are not forcing/inducing anyone to speed.

Agreed here. People need to understand what entrapment really is.

 

[Scott_Thomas]

It's not entrapment. The police are not forcing/inducing anyone to speed.

Okay if you say so. Didn't say I was speeding or condoning it. If the goal is to limit speeding then posting a sign saying speed traps in progress will force those traveling above the speed limit to slow down. The goal should be safely not making money. Why hide the patrol cars out of sight if the goal is to force people to travel the speed limit. The US missed on this one and the UK nailed it.

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[MaximumHP]

The police should be giving me a pat on the back if flashing my lights is helping people slow down, I'm helping them do thier job of keeping traffic speeds down.

 

[Scott_Thomas]

The police should be giving me a pat on the back if flashing my lights is helping people slow down, I'm helping them do thier job of keeping traffic speeds down.

And that my friend is "supposed" to be the goal of speed traps and cameras.

 

[Pinarello Rider]

And that my friend is "supposed" to be the goal of speed traps and cameras.

Unfortunately, that is not the goal anymore, and there is very little that is going to change that.

In the meantime, the way to avoid getting caught in the trap is to remain vigilant, and drive within the speedlimit. That being said, as we all know, even the most vigilant falter, and having someone coming at you flashing headlights can be a good thing to check your speed. A "heads-up!" is all that is needed at times, especially when the trap is located just after the 50mph sign bringing the 65mph zone to an end.

 

[MaximumHP]

And that my friend is "supposed" to be the goal of speed traps and cameras.

yeah, my point exactly. I do believe there is a true desire to bring down accidents by law enforment, but IMO, the worst issues are distraction related not speed, but unfortuantly speed is the easiest to enforce and generates revenue. We let way too much slide while driving in this country. Until that culture changes, people will continue to die on the roads. If someone kills someone while texting and driving, why should thier crime not be punished the same as OWI? They are both avoidable and undertaken knowing the risks. (this is just a hypothetical question)